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-   -   You make the call - newbies especially invited to participate (https://forum.officiating.com/basketball/50956-you-make-call-newbies-especially-invited-participate.html)

Mark Padgett Wed Jan 14, 2009 05:29pm

You make the call - newbies especially invited to participate
 
This happened in my game last night. A1 in backcourt with the ball. He passes to A2 who is facing him, standing on the division line with part of both shoes in the backcourt, part on the line and part in the frontcourt (he had big feet, OK?). A2 catches the ball and, without moving his feet, passes the ball back to A1 who is still in the backcourt.

Is this a violation?

deecee Wed Jan 14, 2009 05:30pm

no

AKOFL Wed Jan 14, 2009 05:32pm

Were all three points in the frontcourt? there is your answer.

Ch1town Wed Jan 14, 2009 05:35pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark Padgett (Post 568639)
Is this a violation?

Yes, when A2 caught the ball Mark was on 8 of his b/c count & when A1 received the pass back Mark was well past 10 seconds... {tweet} 10 b/c violation.

deecee Wed Jan 14, 2009 05:38pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by AKOFL (Post 568643)
Were all three points in the frontcourt? there is your answer.

all 3 points were also in the backcourt.

Scratch85 Wed Jan 14, 2009 05:41pm

No violation 4-35-2

Amesman Wed Jan 14, 2009 06:00pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark Padgett (Post 568639)
This happened in my game last night. A1 in backcourt with the ball. He passes to A2 who is facing him, standing on the division line with part of both shoes in the backcourt, part on the line and part in the frontcourt (he had big feet, OK?). A2 catches the ball and, without moving his feet, passes the ball back to A1 who is still in the backcourt.

Is this a violation?

Did either of them hit the ball with her pigtails?

No.

Not to digress too much, but now what if Mr. Big Feet catches the pass and starts dribbling parallel to the division line, feet in the forecourt, ball bouncing up and down in the backcourt/on the line? (Almost kind of reminds of the old one: Can you tell me if my turn signal is working? OK -- yes, no, yes, no ...)

deecee Wed Jan 14, 2009 06:06pm

all 3 points have to be frontcourt -- the player can still go to the backcourt and it not be a violation since the ball never made it to the front court with the player.

Juulie Downs Wed Jan 14, 2009 06:12pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by deecee (Post 568662)
all 3 points have to be frontcourt -- the player can still go to the backcourt and it not be a violation since the ball never made it to the front court with the player.

Using the 3-point thingy as a guideline is confusing. That rule only applies on a dribble from the bc to the fc, and in no way is applicable to this sitch. The question is, does the ball have fc status or bc status when A2 catches it? Since A2 has bc status, so does the ball. End of discussion.

deecee Wed Jan 14, 2009 06:19pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Juulie Downs (Post 568667)
Using the 3-point thingy as a guideline is confusing. That rule only applies on a dribble from the bc to the fc, and in no way is applicable to this sitch. The question is, does the ball have fc status or bc status when A2 catches it? Since A2 has bc status, so does the ball. End of discussion.

Julie,

I was responding to the post that was right before mine. See Amesman's previous post.

Juulie Downs Wed Jan 14, 2009 06:30pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by deecee (Post 568670)
Julie,

I was responding to the post that was right before mine. See Amesman's previous post.

Okay, I see. but you responded wrong. If he catches ball with his feet in the fc, and then dribbles in the bc, it's a violation, right? What am I missing?

Mark Padgett Wed Jan 14, 2009 06:31pm

Juulie - did you get my email yesterday? If not, that would be lame. (inside joke, guys) ;)

Ref Ump Welsch Wed Jan 14, 2009 06:37pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark Padgett (Post 568639)
This happened in my game last night. A1 in backcourt with the ball. He passes to A2 who is facing him, standing on the division line with part of both shoes in the backcourt, part on the line and part in the frontcourt (he had big feet, OK?). A2 catches the ball and, without moving his feet, passes the ball back to A1 who is still in the backcourt.

Is this a violation?

Ed McMahon: And how big were they? :p

jeschmit Wed Jan 14, 2009 06:37pm

I would say it isn't a BC violation as he still has the right to be in the BC since both of his feet still obtain some of the backcourt floor. I'm thinking of this in terms of what if he started dribbling and moved into the BC and thus removed his big feed from the division line. I would not call a violation then, so I would not call a violation if he passed the ball back without dribbling.

Is there a trick answer to this? Because it seems like there might be...

Juulie Downs Wed Jan 14, 2009 06:38pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark Padgett (Post 568677)
Juulie - did you get my email yesterday? If not, that would be lame. (inside joke, guys) ;)

Yea. I got it. Yup, lame!

referee99 Wed Jan 14, 2009 06:55pm

No trick.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by jeschmit (Post 568682)
I would say it isn't a BC violation as he still has the right to be in the BC since both of his feet still obtain some of the backcourt floor. I'm thinking of this in terms of what if he started dribbling and moved into the BC and thus removed his big feed from the division line. I would not call a violation then, so I would not call a violation if he passed the ball back without dribbling.

Is there a trick answer to this? Because it seems like there might be...

You're right. I would suggest he is IN the backcourt. Period.

deecee Wed Jan 14, 2009 07:18pm

Julie,

he added to the stitch that what if the same player then began to dribble but both his feet ended up in the FC and the ball remained in the BC.

AKOFL Wed Jan 14, 2009 07:36pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by deecee (Post 568647)
all 3 points were also in the backcourt.

Preety much what I was getting at. Three points applies to dribbling, but it you catch the ball with both feet in the front court, the third point ( the ball) now has front court status. Still three points.

deecee Wed Jan 14, 2009 07:40pm

I dont get what you are saying -- because the feet were NOT in the frontcourt.

Amesman Wed Jan 14, 2009 11:29pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amesman (Post 568659)
Did either of them hit the ball with her pigtails?

No.

Not to digress too much, but now what if Mr. Big Feet catches the pass and starts dribbling parallel to the division line, feet in the forecourt, ball bouncing up and down in the backcourt/on the line? (Almost kind of reminds of the old one: Can you tell me if my turn signal is working? OK -- yes, no, yes, no ...)

To clarify my question a bit here, we have the same sitch as Mark posed in the OP (ball caught with feet on division line) and dribble starts.

BUT then player dribbles parallel to division line -- feet in forecourt but ball bouncing in back court. Does he establish himself in forecourt when the ball leaves the backcourt floor on a dribble? Or is he still backcourt until the ball is actually bounced in the forecourt?

What if he's dribbling like that and simply picks up his dribble -- still never having had it land in the forecourt -- does that change your answer?

mbyron Thu Jan 15, 2009 07:46am

Suppose player catches ball with a foot in BC and begins to dribble. Now the "3-point" part of the rule goes in to effect: he's a dribbler in the BC, so both feet and the ball must be in FC for him to have FC status.

Put the point differently: if a player catches the ball, then the ball has the same status as the player (BC in your question). The ball can gain FC status without a dribble, if, for instance, a player is straddling the line and pivots into the FC (even just picking up the BC foot would do it). If a player with BC status begins to dribble with the ball or either foot in the BC, the ball still has BC status.

Keep the 10-second BC count going during all of the action you describe.

Adam Thu Jan 15, 2009 11:43am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amesman (Post 568762)
To clarify my question a bit here, we have the same sitch as Mark posed in the OP (ball caught with feet on division line) and dribble starts.

BUT then player dribbles parallel to division line -- feet in forecourt but ball bouncing in back court. Does he establish himself in forecourt when the ball leaves the backcourt floor on a dribble? Or is he still backcourt until the ball is actually bounced in the forecourt?

What if he's dribbling like that and simply picks up his dribble -- still never having had it land in the forecourt -- does that change your answer?

If his feet are on the division line when he starts dribbling, then the 3 point guideline is in play. If his feet were in the FC when he caught the ball, 3 points do not matter.

Now, let's say he starts dribbling with his feet on the line and the ball bouncing in the BC. While dribbling, he moves his feet to the FC but the ball continues bouncing in the BC. Once he picks up his dribble, he has ended the three points issue, and now has FC status.

Juulie Downs Thu Jan 15, 2009 11:51am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amesman (Post 568762)
To clarify my question a bit here, we have the same sitch as Mark posed in the OP (ball caught with feet on division line) and dribble starts.

BUT then player dribbles parallel to division line -- feet in forecourt but ball bouncing in back court. Does he establish himself in forecourt when the ball leaves the backcourt floor on a dribble? Or is he still backcourt until the ball is actually bounced in the forecourt?

What if he's dribbling like that and simply picks up his dribble -- still never having had it land in the forecourt -- does that change your answer?

Ah, I see now. I didn't realize you were saying that he caught the ball with feet on the division line as in the OP. Deecee is correct,then. Three points applies.

Amesman Thu Jan 15, 2009 11:53am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snaqwells (Post 568924)
Now, let's say he starts dribbling with his feet on the line and the ball bouncing in the BC. While dribbling, he moves his feet to the FC but the ball continues bouncing in the BC. Once he picks up his dribble, he has ended the three points issue, and now has FC status.

THAT is the scenario I was (so pathetically) trying to describe. :o Thanks

Scratch85 Thu Jan 15, 2009 03:56pm

Division Line Reminder
 
The division line is in the backcourt. I know this doesn't really apply to the OP, but since b/c violations are commonly confusing, I thought it would be good to think this out before we get on the court.

NewUmpinCT Mon Jan 19, 2009 10:35pm

I believe the answer is no. The ball and both feet never totally entered into the front court. Play continues, nothing called.

swkansasref33 Tue Feb 03, 2009 02:33pm

no. the rule states that the offensive player must establish himself in front court-all three points- ball, both feet, before he is in the front court. this is not a violation

Adam Tue Feb 03, 2009 02:35pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by swkansasref33 (Post 575406)
no. the rule states that the offensive player must establish himself in front court-all three points- ball, both feet, before he is in the front court. this is not a violation

Which situation are you referring to?

swkansasref33 Tue Feb 03, 2009 02:52pm

the op

Adam Tue Feb 03, 2009 02:58pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by swkansasref33 (Post 575411)
the op

Then the "3 points" rule is not relevant. The player in the OP is not dribbling.


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