Inbounds hand off rules
 

I am a coach of a youth 4th 5th grade girls basketball team. We had a game today and I argued with an official that he was handing the ball in to quickly. As soon as the girl stepped up that was throwing it in he would hand it to her and start the 5 second count. This resulted in several turnovers for us because we were not set up and scattered across the floor. I kept my cool for the first 4 or 5 times, but finally called him over on a timeout and voiced my opinion. He said he had been officiating youth basketball for 15 years and had never heard of any rules when handing the ball in. Well I played basketball since I was 5 to 34 and watched thousands of games in between and unless a team won't come out of a time-out in time the officials always allow the teams to set up before handing the ball to the passer. Is there any official rules in the book on this?

No. Once the second horn goes, the team is supposed to be ready to play and once there's someone to throw in, the official is more than within his rights to put the ball in play. Actually, once the second horn goes, the official should either give the ball to the inbounder or put the ball on the floor and start the count. But officials will usually delay a bit if there's nobody there to take the throw.

You may try delaying having your player go to the inbounds spot. Or, better yet, get your players out quicker.

There is no rule regarding this. Depending on the level of play, some officials may hesitate a second or two to allow a really confused team to organize themselves. However, officials are encouraged to get the ball back into play quickly. If there is a player there for the throw-in, she should expect the ball as soon as she gets there. If there is no thrower, you should expect to see the ball on the floor.

First thing, welcome to the forum.

I honestly am a little confused what you are wanting. But once you give the ball to the thrower, the count starts. There is no waiting for everyone to set up provision in the rules.

It sounds to me like the official did the right thing, if I understand what you gripe is.

Peace

Kevin,
One suggestion is to have the inbounder go to the throw-in spot a bit more deliberately. There is not a requirement that the team in possession must sprint to the throw-in spot. Make sure her teammates DO get quickly to their spots, but have the person taking the throw-in get their a bit slower.

Assuming that there are no subs coming in and no fouls to report (even in these cases, there is no specified time requirements, but these activities should give a team more than enough time to get in position for a throw-in), there is no specified time for the official to wait to put the ball at the disposition of the thrower. By the time I point to the specific spot and make eye contact with my partner(s), generally, the offense is in position for the play.

If a team is slow to get lined up, they may not be in position prior to the inbounder receiving the ball from one of us. But, this is very rare. We try to get the ball in play quickly to keep the flow of the game, but, we also try to give the offense (and defense) a reasonable amount of time to get ready for spot throw-ins.

Could someone tell me why there is no rules on this. You could have a player that dove for a loose ball that had not gotten up quickly enough to set up to defend the inbound pass and this would be a huge advantage to the offense. Surely there is some courtesy rule on this or I'm just crazy. Like I said before when I was playing in high school the official would always hold the ball for a few seconds even if the passer was standing there. Is there anyone that would agree with me on this.

There's nothing in the rulebook called a "courtesy rule". On a board like this, you're going to get a ruling according to the rules in the rulebook. I routinely work youth basketball and have for over 20 years. I administer inbounds according to the rules.

As I would suspect of most officials, I hold the ball until I'm sure an procedural events are complete such as subs and my partner(s) are set and ready to go. As far as this being in the rule book, it would be hard to regulate. Goodness knows we have enough rules now.

Because no one feels this is an issue. And I do not see a reason for such a rule. Get out of the huddle on time and you will not have to worry about someone being courtesy. Control what you can control. ;)

Peace

On violations and fouls, once my partners are in place, we're rolling. I don't wait for the players to get set up, but I wait for my partners.

Kevin,
I would strongly suggest you refer to my earlier post (While I have been an official for years now, I have been a coach since the 70s). This should eliminate the problem for your team when making a throw-in.

While there is no "courtesy rule" per se in basketball, I don't know any official who would intentionally put the ball at the disposition of an inbounder if a player were still lying on the floor having just saved or having attempted to save the ball or if they requested to tie an untied shoe.

At times, some officials do rush to get the ball back into play. Generally, these officials fit into one of two categories:
1. New officials who are in too big of a hurry and fail to make sure that the game is ready to be restarted
2. Veteran officials trying to get-in-and-get-out as quickly as possible.

At the same time, if there is no reason to delay (no subs, no fouls being reported, no injured players, etc.), then as officials we DO try to get the ball in play as quickly as REASONABLY possible (not to be confused with the "courtesy rule.") :D

Play Ball ...
 

I'm not going to put the ball in play if he's still on the floor. I'll give him time to get up, but no more than second or two, because if it's longer than that, I'm beckoning the coach to tend to the injured player. If he gets up in a second or two, I'm putting the ball in play as soon as I check the table for substitutes, check time on the clock, and make eye contact with my partner.

If this is happening when substitutes are reporting, which could be a confusing time for players, you're going to get a few extra seconds anyway, because in addition to doing all of the above, I'm going to be counting players to make sure each team has five. If this is happening after a timeout, or intermission, don't use the entire 30 seconds, or 60 seconds, in the huddle, get your kids set up at the first horn, not the second horn.

For a regular throwin, no possibility of an injured player, no timeout, or intermission, no substitutes, I think that you need to teach your kids to watch the official to see where he designates a spot, get to that spot, and set up the play, as soon as possible, which shouldn't be more than a few seconds.

This is most likely a coaching problem, not an officiating problem, and this is coming from an official, who besides having 28 years of officiating experience, at all levels, from third grade, to high school varsity, was also a middle school coach for over 25 years. The only way this could be an officiating problem is if the official is not designating a spot (poor signals), or is not putting the ball in play where it is supposed to be put into play (poor mechanics). If this is really starting to bug you, then send a substitute to the table every time there is a throwin situation, it will give you a few extra seconds.

[QUOTE=CMHCoachNRef;567157]
2. Veteran officials trying to get-in-and-get-out as quickly as possible.

I'm calling Bull**** on this. I have been taught to keep the game moving. I'm not of the mind set of get-in- get-out concept.

The sooner the ball is back into play; the sooner the coach can start back coaching. So, to say that Veteran officials are of this mind set really displays your officiating I.Q.

[QUOTE=truerookie;567160]Rook,
You can call what you like, but I can tell you that there ARE veteran officials who DO have the mind set of get-in-and-get-out quick mentality. I did NOT say that ALL veteran officials are of this mindset, BUT there are those who ARE. I know one official in particular who would proudly announce "44 minutes" or "52 minutes" as soon as I walked into the gym. He was also referring to the length of time that it took to complete the previous game. Whenever he describes a game, it always starts with the length of the game. It is veteran officials such as this who are much more likely to put the ball in play while a player is lying on the floor, before his partner is ready, etc.

Once again, please do NOT jump to the false conclusion that just because some officials are veteran officials and some veteran officials have the mind set of get-in-and-get-out quick mentality that ALL veteran officials have that mind set. Some of US clearly do NOT have that mindset.

[QUOTE=truerookie;567160]By the way, since you have no idea what my officiating I.Q. might be, that is quite presumptuous on your part to jump to the conclusion -- especially when you are misinterpreting a statement.

I feel your pain.
 

Kevin W, I coached a 5th grade CYO team last year, and our ability to get set on throw-in situations was horrible. Our most eager player ran to the spot and got the ball, and my knuckleheads were still trying to remember our simple box plays and what they were supposed to do.

Fortunately as an official, I got some insight into how to control the timing here -- simply substitute on every out-of-bounds play under your basket. Designate one position that will be your 'hot seat' position. Say, Joe and Pete are going to share that spot.

When the out-of bounds situation occurs, just turn and say "Joe get Pete", or "Pete get Joe". They make a move to the table to report, they sub in and you've just bought 15 seconds. This will slow the game down to a level where you can get your players set and run your inbounds play. Also, really work on getting them to 'snap to' when you want them to. Set 'em up in different configurations on the floor. One is out of bounds, one is on the floor, 2 are by the division line, and one is near the sideline. Challenge them to get into their formation as quickly as possible. Time 'em. Make a game out of it... you know, one of those games with suicides in it.;)

Another suggestion, here. DESIGNATE a TRIGGER for inbounds plays. This could be the "messenger guards" (old Cleveland Browns term) that referee99 mentions or one of your other players. I was also VERY DEMANDING that the same player inbounded the ball -- this is a VERY IMPORTANT job. This player had to be a fairly smart (relative to the rest of my team) player. We, too, would practice inbounds plays like referee99 suggests -- with the players randomly positioned on the court. I would relay the play in to the players THE MOMENT I KNEW we had possession of the ball. This would get the four "on court" players moving in to position. The trigger would also repeat my play call -- all the while moving in the direction of the spot, BUT NOT running to the spot.

Inbounds plays -- especially under your own basket -- provide a GREAT SCORING OPPORTUNITY (especially at the younger ages, but even at the college level and everywhere in between)!!! You want to take advantage of these opportunities by either utilizing a sub (as JRut and referee99 suggests), having a very repeatable process as I suggest, or a combination of the two.

From the 2007-09 NFHS Officials Manual on pages 20 & 51:

"The throw-in team should make a player available to attempt the throw-in. No appreciable delay should be allowed before placing the ball at the disposal of the thrower and beginning the five-second count."

[QUOTE=CMHCoachNRef;567163]Ok, we have reached an agreement NOT all veteran officials have this mind set.

"Good Night, Mrs. Calabash, Wherever You Are!" ...
 

Thanks Nevadaref. Now that should settle it. Be sure to turn out the light.

Kevin,
Nevadaref's rule quotation in this case is what prevents an official from waiting say "a 5 second count" (as this would be a measured amount of time) before handing the ball to the inbounder.

However, that part of the manual also states that the proper and specific spot is to be designated by the administering official, the administering official should always make eye contact with his partner(s) to insure that his partner is ready for play to resume (which includes determining if there are substitutes at the table, insuring that there are exactly five players from each team on the court, neither coach is requesting time out, etc.).

I think you should now have an understanding of why the official was getting the ball in play when he was yesterday. Was he really rushing at times? Well, perhaps, you had to be there. But, as a coach, you have to adjust your team's play to the official for that game. JRutledge, referee99 and I have given you some options that can be employed to legally give your young team some additional time to get set for inbounds plays.

One of the interesting points of officiating sports is that there are many situations that one official can interpret (and justify that interpretation) one way while another official can interpret (and just that interpretation) another way. In this case, the term "appreciable" can be interpreted to be VIRTUALLY NO TIME as was the case in your game yesterday or it can be interpreted as NO SPECIFIC AMOUNT OF TIME (not five seconds or any other specified amount of time each time) as is the case in most instances.

Good luck next week....and be sure to spend some time getting the "cats" herded to their inbound spots quickly (except for the thrower) during practice......

OP never mentions his problem with official is due to extended huddle. In a kids game, survey the floor quickly and calmly hand ball to inbounder. I've had experience with guys who can't wait for game to end for a variety of reasons, just a stupid kid's game, cutting it too close for next games etc. who jam it in some 12 year old girl's hands the split second she steps out of bounds. I'm not saying this happened but that's my take on what poster is trying to convey.

Based on the number of times the situation happened during the game, I surmised the same.

Whether he mentioned the feelings of the official or not, it not the point to what I posted. The teams by rule are supposed to get out of the timeout huddle at an appropriate time. That is a fact whether he knew to mention it or not.

Secondly, you are only surmising whether the officials were in a hurry or not. I have seen officials give the ball to the player because they do not wait to make sure their partners are ready. I did not read anything that said why this happen other than the OPer did not know the rule. I was just giving a reason why this might have happen. I have no idea the motives and would not speculate on something like that just reading a play on the board. It does not matter if it is a kid's game or the state championship for high school. The bottom line is getting your kids out of the huddle and you will not have to worry about someone not being ready.

Peace

The coach's situation was NOT caused by his team coming out of time outs slowly. The situations were just normal designated spot throw-ins during the game. Official calls "Blue" and points to spot outside lane line. Blue players are scrambled in various positions in the front court when the ball went out of play. The Blue team inbounder got to the spot quicker than other Blue players got to their spots for the inbounds play. The official quickly handed the ball to the Blue team inbounder. By the time the Blue team players got to their positions, either 5-second calls or rushed passes were the result.

This is the inbounding team's problem, then. I'll make sure the defense is in position if the teams are out or coming out, but once someone is in position to receive the ball, I'm blowing the whistle and handing or bouncing it to the thrower-in.

It is still not our responsibility to make sure everyone is in place before we hand the ball. And if a coach has a problem with this fact, then they need to teach their players to hurry up.

I was not there (and neither were you) and I have no idea if this was because of what the coach expects or the official was too fast. Either way it goes, when the throw-in team is ready, that means I am ready if my partners are also ready. I might wait a second or two, but not waiting for everyone to run around and try to figure it out. Sounds like the coach needs to tell their players to get into position quicker. The official did not throw the ball away. And for God's sake, what else do you expect to happen at the 4th and 5th grade levels? Those games are not void of turnovers.

I still have not read anything that suggests the official did anything wrong.


Peace

Sounds pretty simple to me. Coach should either tell the inbounder to slow down or the other players to speed up in getting to their spots. Sure doesn't sound like the official did anything wrong.

Don't misunderstand, I am NOT saying that the official necessarily did anything wrong. The coach has been given multiple options to fix this situation: delay the inbounder getting to the "spot" slightly while the other players get in position or put a sub at the table.

At the same time, I have seen officials in such a rush to get the game finished that they do not allow a reasonable amount of time for the team to prepare for the inbounds (NOTE: not an "appreciable" amount of time).

Once again a big assumption on your part.

Where I am from, most experienced officials would not be doing these games at all. The officials that would be doing these games do not have enough experience to work much else or they are not going to be a lot of other kinds of games afterwards. So if we just took what I have experienced, the official probably did not have enough seasoning to either wait or they were doing what they always did and it was never a problem before. That is why to assume anything else, outside of what the coach told us is really silly a futile. We were not there, we do not know what the officials was about or the situations.

But considering this is a coach at this level and asked us "if there was a rule" that tells me that likely the official was not largely at fault, but the coach did not understand what is going on (as what usually takes place with coaches at this level). And that is really the case when you are not expecting 4th and 5th graders (the basketball is bigger than they are) to not turnover the ball or to not make mistakes and you are blaming it on the official who simply gave the ball to the thrower. I do not know about you, but I have not seen a lot of well played basketball at that level. ;)

Peace

Hustle?
 

During the off season and even some during the season I still work some of the kids ball down at that level, from recreation to, the traveling leagues.
Most officials give an ample opportunity for teams to get set. However most officials also have little patience for lack of hustle or knowledge of what is going on on the court.

If the team is completely discombobulated (highly technical term meaning confused and disoriented) no amount of time is going to help the kids get in position, and a s soon as a player is in position to get the ball the official is going to put the ball at the disposal of the thrower.

If the throw in is at one end of the floor and the players are walking around with no intention of getting to the ball this week the official is going to put the ball on the floor.

So I would recommend a couple of things hustle into position and get the play called, the n have the thrower step into position – do not stand there for two seconds before calling break, and design simple plays to get the ball inbounds that do not take three - four seconds to develop just in case it is close and you have to get the ball in bounds quickly.

Even the in and out guys – rarely put the ball in play so fast that they end up with a violation because their goal is to keep the clock running all day long they do not want another delay.

So while the official might be quick coach, you just have to work a little quicker.

First off, this is a great place to learn the rules. Right now I'm just a bball dad, but have done a (very) little reffing, and also coached.

I've had the opposite problem, of the ball being handed off too slow. Around 6-7th grade, teams started pressing, and we would want to get the ball in quickly before the opposition could really set up a press. And consistently the ref would hold the ball in his hand, and wait until the other team was set up. Very frustrating, but nothing you can do. I wanted to tell my players to grab the ball and inbound it, but figured that wouldn't go over too well.

Welcome, Dad. You're right, that probably wouldn't go over well, although I understand your frustration.

I'll be honest, I rarely look at the players on the court (other than to count them) when administering a throwin. I look at my partners, and when they're ready I turn to the thrower and hand or bounce the ball. I'm certainly not waiting for the defense to set up.

Sure, I know it wasn't intentional. At that age, I'm sure they were just making sure everyone was ready to play. Which makes sense on the one hand.

To the OP, 5 seconds is a long time, and generally it will be counted very slow for shorties. Get them a simple inbound play like Box, and you'll never get a 5 count.

Well, the real challenge is getting the players INTO the box. I think the problem that Kevin was having was that his players were not close to being in the box, but the inbounder (who is excited to be inbounding!!!) was getting to the designated spot very quickly. It sounded as though the result was the first couple seconds were used to get the players to their spots (in the box or otherwise), the next couple were wasted as the inbounder slapped the ball (I have never liked this one as a coach), leaving only a second or so for that simple box play to develop.

The coach now knows -- due to the incessant pounding to the horse no longer alive -- that officials are not to wait "an appreciable amount of time" prior to putting the ball at the disposition of the inbounder. He has also been given a few suggestions for lessening the chances of a turnover (as JRut pointed out, TOs at this age level are an expected outcome in many cases).