Interesting T
 

What is proper administration for the following play?

A1 in-bounding the ball to A2 after a made basket, B2 steals the ball
for a lay-up and two points. A1 grabs the ball and slams the ball off
the floor and to the rafters out of frustration. A1 is assessed a
technical foul as part of the first quarter, but so close to the end of
the first quarter that the clock cannot be stopped. Possession arrow to
start the second period is for team A.

Since the T came before the end of the 1st quarter, you shoot the T free throws as part of the 1Q. Start 2Q like you normally would - arrow favors team A.

what he said, in both Fed and NCAA.

So you are inbounding the ball per the possession arrow????

Are you not penalizing B by not giving them a thow to follow the free throw shots???

Penalties from one period cannot carry over to the next. You're not penalizing B, you're just not carrying over a 1st quarter penalty into the 2nd quarter. B just ran out of time.

If the violation or foul occured before the horn - No part of the penalty can carry over into the next period.

Example: pos A with team A

A2 travels under the same circumstances too close to the end the first period that the clock could not stop.

Is it fair that team A gets the ball back?

who has a rule reference from the NFHS books regarding this matter?

Anyone with a rule book. :) Sorry, couldn't help it. If one isn't provided today, I'll try to remember to look it up when I get home tonight.

5-6-2 (Exc)3

rule 5
section 6
exceptions

4. If a technical foul occurs after the ball has become dead to end a quarter or extra period, the next quarter or extra period is started by administering the free throws. This applies when the foul occurs after any quarter has ended, including the fourth quarter, provided there is to be an extra period. If there is no way to determine whether there will be an extra period until the free throws are administered, the free throws are attempted immediately, as if the foul had been part of the preceding quarter.

NFHS R5-S6, Exception 3: "If a foul occurs so near the expiration of time that the timer cannot get the clock stopped before time expires or after time expires, but while the ball is in flight during a try or tap for field goal. The quarter or extra period ends when the free throw(s) and all related activity have been completed. No penalty or part of a penalty carries over from one quarter or extra period to the next, except when a correctable error, as in 2-10, is rectified. No free throw(s) shall be attempted after time has expired for the fourth quarter or any extra period, unless the point(s) would affect the outcome of the game."

NCAA R5-S7-A3c: "When a foul occurs so near the expiration of time that the official timer cannot stop the game clock before time expires or when the
foul occurs after time expires but while the ball is in flight during a try, the period shall end when the free throw(s) and all related activity have been completed."

MTD, Sr.

In this, if it is clear that the player is just upset at himself, I would let it go and have a word with him. If there is more time on the clock I would just blow the whistle for an officials time out and have the same word with player.

I wouldn't T a player showing frustration at himself in this manner without at least having a chat with him.

"to the rafters...." Really?

So, what at what height is the dividing line between "automatic T" and telling the little sh!t to knock it off?

(I'm kinda enjoying channeling our Ancient Dinosaur.) :D

Shirley - you jest! :p

An official does not have the authority to charge a timeout to himself
fed.
rule 5 section 8
NOTE: When a player is injured as in Art. 2(a), the official may suspend play after the ball is dead or is in control of the injured player's team or when the opponents complete a play. A play is completed when a team loses control (including throwing for goal) or withholds the ball from play by ceasing to attempt to score or advance the ball to a scoring position. When necessary to protect an injured player, the official may immediately suspend play.

for NCAA case play rule sites
A.R. 128. When an official on his or her own initiative stops play to protect
an injured player, should a timeout be charged to the team?
RULING: No. After stopping play, the official should ask the player
if the player desires a timeout. When the player does not, play shall
be resumed immediately. When the player is not ready to resume play
immediately, a substitution is required or his/her team may request a
timeout. No official has the authority to charge a timeout to himself
or herself.
(Rule 5-10.6 and 5-13.2)


I do not believe there is a difference in FED.
but to do that to discuss not giving a player a T
you might have a problem there :(

We stop the clock for many reasons. If after a score the ball takes an odd bounce and rolls under the bleachers. To tie ones shoes. Whatever. This is a stoppage of play for about 3-5 seconds.

As for how high the ball goes -- I dont care -- it could enter orbit, height has no bearing on whether or not I T, it certainly doesn't when it comes to a legal dribble or not as well.

Does it really matter what we call it? :rolleyes:

Well it does matter but that wasn't really my point,
my point was that he was going to take time out /suspend play to discuss the behavior of player who had slammed the ball "into the rafters" according to the OP.
Even if that is just in frustration that has to be a T.
The child has to learn to take responsibility for their actions and control themselves and saying it doesn't matter how high they slam it you are not going to T - them you are going to talk them down is a problem for the game.
you are not there to be a counsler.

Yes I have done it with kids - used some dead ball time to stop a situation from going any further, with two players involved yes, but not for something that would be this blatant.

I am just saying do not go coaching and counseling players individually in situations where everyone already thinks there should be a T.

It's somewhere between 5 feet and the rafters.

Now, STFU.

A player can bounce the ball in anger as high as he wants, but if the ball comes down it is a TF, :D.

MTD, Sr.

Ill give the kid the benefit of the doubt here. Its not like this is a rampantly occuring item during games where we need to worry about will the kid learn a lesson or not from a T or not T. Either way he will learn, as long as someone tells him.

So, let me get serious for a second - are you saying you would not penalize unsporting behavior, as long as "someone tells him"? Do you not call a travel on a drive to the basket, as long as the coach tells him, "Good move, except you traveled on that; don't do that anymore"?

What if the other team asks if you screwed them out of a couple of FT's and a possesion because you didn't make the proper call? As long someone tells the player, it's ok?

Quickest way for him to learn is with a T. And no coach in the world will question a T on a ball bounced to the rafters. Neither would any assigner that I know of. I'd have a harder time justifying not calling this when the other coach wonders why it wasn't called and asks my assigner.

I've always wanted to ask you this: what happens if the ball gets stuck up in the rafters? Do you tell the kid to go buy a lottery ticket, because this is apparently his lucky day? :D

I can always count on someone on this forum to compare apples to oranges. How often have you seen this?

Im 8 years I can probably count on less than half the fingers on one hand how many times I have. I think consensus among players are that you cannot do this. The 1 in 5-10 years I see this and it goes down the way I said it would have to, to not get a T, I will act accordingly.

Now to anticipate the next "what if" -- if now every player in that game starts doing this, well then once one player gets his quick little "cut that out" chat I will T. but again, we can argue what ifs until we get carpral tunnel. But this isnt really an issue that comes up often at all. Spiking is pretty much a football move.

ROFLMAO!!

MTD, Sr.

It's apples and kumquats, by the way. Get it right. :p

Not very often, but how often I've seen it doesn't matter. I was commenting on your statement about simply talking to a player when you see (very likely) unsporting behavior instead of penalizing it.

It's been a couple of years snce I had a coach literally get in my face to protest a call. But, even though I haven't seen it that often, I will still penalize it when I do, rather than try to wait for "someone to tell them" they shouldn't do that.

Frequency of occurance isn't a good barometer on when to talk to a player and when to penalize.

M&M I agree with most of what you say -- there are some instances where a T isnt necessary when it COULD be called. This is one of them. As much as I am an advocate of an official not also playing the part of a coach, there are moments where one can be a teacher and it doesn't effect anything. This is one of those rare moments.

But again I would not say anything to a partner for calling this T, in fact I would probably say "good call" because after all its not a bad call. Its just not one that I would call if it were clear that a player did this out of frustration for turning it over and especially when the period was ending.

Are you also going to refrain from whacking the opposing coach when he goes ballistic on you asking how a player can bounce a ball into the rafters without penalty?

No a coach wont go ballistic here -- He might be upset and ask why I didnt T and I will explain why. I will also make it clear that my philosophy is extended to both teams on the court. Any coach after hearing a reasonable explanation has 2 choices drop it or continue on and earn his T.

What is unsporting here?

The player is upset at himself and slams the ball in the ground, usually by the time the ball returns to the court its about 2-3 seconds max. Thats also the average time before the ball is at the disposal of the team to throw in.

So the player here is upset at himself and his act isnt done to show anyone up EXCEPT really himself. He's not upset at the offiical or the other team and he hasnt wasted any time. Also No matter how hard I slam the ball, unless this is a small gym the rafters might be too high, I wont reach the rafters. And I am 6'6" 225lbs, and I work out somewhat regularly. So lets just scale back our expectations of touchdown Johnny here being able to do this (the only exception is for an overinflated ball - and that wont happen in my game).

So in the end, I have no problem dealing with players, coaches, the table, admin, and fans. A decent amount of players and coaches should recognize me, since I officiate their games in the offseason as well. For those that dont, they will get an explanation. They dont have to be happy with it, they just have to accept it for what it is and act accordingly.

My best T is one I dont have to call.

M&M Guy:

That is not right either. It is dollars to donuts, opps that is betting dollars to donuts. Me bad. :p

MTD, Sr.

I agreed with you on the rest...ball goes that high, it's will be a T under all but a most extreme set of circumstances.

As for what we call it. I don't agree that it matters. It is NOT the same as "reaching in", "over the back", etc. Those miscommunicate what happens in a way that is detrimental...implying what could be an entirely legal act as being illegal. We could call such a stoppage a respite, a lull, a break, or any other synonym for all anyone would care and it would never make a difference.

It is even more irrelevant of an argument than worrying about whether a coach requests or calls timeout and on par with whether you call it an endline or a baseline.

I can't disagree with you more.....In this situation, you give him the T even HE expects, and then give him counseling (if you so desire.) He knows he earned the T, and he will disrespect you for not giving it to him...IMHO....

Of course a player can be frustrated. S/he also need to handle the frustration properly and deal with the consequences if s/he doesn't.

http://www.originalmmc.com/images/Al...%20Kimball.jpg

This struck me. I bet Billy Mac gets it.

I am not saying or trying to to argue that anyone else shouldnt call the T if they want, I have just been expressing what I would do and my reasoning for it. Just because I disagree with how someone will handle a situation doesn't mean I will criticize their choice and what they did. You can have 2 "good" options on how to handle 1 situation with 2 completly different outcomes.

Damm, where's Jurassic when we need him?