What Not to Do/Say!
 

Last night - watching my son's HS play. Girl's Varsity followed by Boy's Varsity. Same crew of three did both games. It was about 2 hours up the freeway, so I didn't know any of the officials involved. Interesting things that happened...

Shot free throws twice in the second quarter on illegal screen calls. Ball is inbounds and being dribbled, screener never stops moving, good calls. Then they line them up both times to shoot. Yikes...:o

Coach stands up (they have a coaching box here) and asks (not yelling or anything) why they are shooting free throws. Official tells him "Because we're in the bonus coach." Coach says "But it was a team control foul." Official - "You need to sit down and be quiet, coach." Yikes again...:(

4th quarter - ball being dribbled, player sets screen, defender knocks screener to floor. Foul called on defender is the 8th team foul...no free throws! Coach stands up and says "Hey! Why aren't we shooting?" Same official responds - "Coach, that was a screening foul and we don't shoot on those. We messed that up in the first half, but we're getting it right this time. And I already warned you to sit down and be quiet." Yikes, yikes, yikes!!:mad:

At this point, I went out and spent the last 4 minutes sitting in the cafeteria!

Yikes³ is right.

I can maybe see if the rule changed this year, but to screw up both ends of the rule. . .

And the coach, assistant coach, student assistant, trainer, water boy, and stats keeper all got to stay and watch the whole game? Thats terrible. If I was a coach my whole bench would of been cleared because we all would of been in the locker room after our technicals calling the state association.

Do they not have a protest procedure? They would of been the easy thing to do. In Missouri you get the rule book out and look it up, if you cant find it move on, if you can find it correct it.

At this point, I would sit because I would have earned a T for letting the official know

1. He doesnt know the rules about TC fouls
2. He doesn't know the rules about the Coaches box and I am not obligated to sit (yet)
3. He CANNOT TELL me how to do my job
4. He has no right to tell me what to do when he clearly has no idea what he's doing.

Pretty tame coaches really. I expect this at the frosh/soph level and sometimes JV. But not varsity.

Whoa, it is normal for a coach to pull out a rule book in your area and show up the officials?!?! :confused::eek:

-Josh

There is a protest procedure here in Washington, but the score was not close enough to warrant any kind of protest. I think the final spread was 22 points or something like that...anyway, the Coach told me last night that he had the official's names, and that the home coach gave him the name and number of the assignor to call and lodge a complaint. Interestingly, the home coach said he was going to call and complain also - he's a former official (I worked a couple State tournaments with him years ago) and was pretty upset about the mistakes that were made.

And deecee, it's a small, private Christian school where T's are mightily frowned upon by the AD, Principal, etc...I coach football there, got a USC penalty two years ago for arguing a call, and was put on probation for the remainder of the season. Sportsmanship and resiliency are stressed to the players.

Rocky - I'm glad you said the game was 2 hours up the freeway, and not down the freeway.

(Inside joke for those of us near the Washington/Oregon border)

I'm not 100 % about basketball protest but I believe that is how the protest procedure works. I know for a fact in softball, if they want to protest a rule they have 10 minutes to find the rule and show the official. If they cant find the rule within 10 minutes sorry we're moving on.

As far as basketball I believe it is the same way, however they must have the rulebook on the bench with them. They can not leave to go get one. 10 minutes if you find the rule fix it, if not were moving on.

But in the situation of shooting on team control, the other coach had to be thinking what in the hell is going on, and could probably help the situation out by getting together with the officials and getting it correct, but if you cant even stand up to talk to the officials about it than who knows. Sounds like someone needed to be making a phone call to the assigner that night right after the game and say thanks for getting us officials for the night but dont send me those 3 again.

Ha! It was north, not south!

A 10 minute delay for a protest? No thank you. I'd rather risk officials who don't know the rules.

first there is no protest in NFHS basketball.
Second right or wrong if a coach pulls out a book they are gone -
that is flagrantly showing up an official.
I know it is a bad situation - but we are not even going to look at that book on the floor.
talk about it afterward like civilized men/women, but I can guarantee that if a coach pulls out a book and says anything about something being do wrong during a game that is the an automatic E-ticket.

I have done it and been blessed for it.

I believe Missouri allows for in-game protests like this. Personally, I think it's stupid; but I'm not King of Missouri, so....

They sold Bud to foriegners too, another reason not go to MO.

Drink Coors. :)

In Missouri there is. I am now looking at the sheet they hand out at our annual meeting and it reads as follows:

The Board of Directors adopted the following Policy, March, 1997, to address protest.....

1. Within the procedures established...
2. If the coach still believes there has been a misapplication of a rule by a contest official, the coach shall then file a formal verbal protest with the game official who will then notify the opposing coach immediately of the protest.
3. Followign the notification of the protest, the coach shall be allowed approximately ten minutes to use his/her NF rules book. If the head coach does not have personal copies of teh above mentioned materials at teh game site or the specific rule reference or case book plays cannot be located within the maximum allowable ten minutes, the protest shall automatically be disallowed adn teh game shall continue POI.
4. All protest shall be resolved at the contest site before any further game action occurs.
5......
6. The MSHSAA Board of Directors/ and or Staff shall not review contest protests


B. Process
1.Once the head coach has filed a formal verbal protest with teh game officials, they shall notify the opposing head coach of the protest adn the playing field, court, mat, etc. shall be cleared of all participants and they shall report to their respective team bench areas.
2. The head coach shall then be allowed approx. ten minutes to locate specific rules........The game officials shall also confer among themselves durign the period to address teh claim of the coach as to the potential rule missapplication
3. If the head coach is able to produce rule evidence from teh above mentioned sources to support the claim of a missapplication of a game rule, the officials shall correct the error as provided in the contest rules and the contest shall proceed from the POI. If the head coach cannot produce the evidence , the protest shall be disallowed and the contest shall continue from the POI.


With all that being said. I've never seen it happen either in Basketball nor Softball.

Like I said; stupid.

I'm simply shocked...Question for you though MO, what is the correctable time frame in which a rule can be corrected by protest?

Failure to award a merited free throw or Awarding an unmerited free throw falls under 2-10. So does the protest has to occur before the provisions provided in 2-10?

-Josh

Inquiring Minds Want To Know ...
 

We drive on the parkway, and park in the driveway. Why?

If the best part of a city is uptown, what if the best part of a particular city is south of midtown? Uptown downtown?

If Billy Joel married Petula Clark ... Never mind.

e-Ticket for official being wrong?
 

OHBBRef,
You stated, " I can guarantee that if a coach pulls out a book and says anything about something being do(ne) wrong during a game that is the an automatic E-ticket."

To each his own. If I get a call completely wrong -- by rule not by judgment -- and a coach gets the book out and confirms it.....Sorry, I am going to eat my crow with the feathers. I am NOT going to punish the coach's team -- AGAIN (typically, the reason the coach looks in the first place is because I made a mistake against his team) -- for my mistake.

We can all make mistakes. Sometimes, we have to be man enough to admit it. Just my humble opinion.

[QUOTE=MOofficial;565811]In Missouri there is.

Dang, no wonder they call it the "show me state!":cool:

Thats nice, a Coach can take a 10 minute timeout, no penalty. If I was coach and wanted 10 minutes, I would find some rule to question.

Rocky, those weren't Lewis County officials were they? :)

OH and I have had our disagreements, but this isn't one of them. It has nothing to do with eating crow or being man enough to admit your mistake.

For better or worse, the game goes better when the official has final authority. It goes smoother, it goes faster, and it's just better.

"Coach, I'll be happy to discuss it another time, but you'll need to put the book away for the night."

Unfortunately, they were...:rolleyes:

You probably had one of them when you were at Elma!

The coach could have gone to the table for a correctable error. He needs to know how to do that.

First of all, I am impressed that the coach has the rule book. Secondly, I have no problem with the official having the final authority, but the part that makes the game go "smoother", "faster" and "just better" is when the official actually KNOWS the rules. Thirdly, can you state the rule or case that REQUIRES the coach to put the rule book away?

I have coached basketball for about as long as some of the oldest dinosaurs have been reffing. I got my referee license years and years ago because several officials felt that I was one of the few coaches who actually knew nearly all of the rules. I can tell you that I never expect a referee to know every single nuance of every rule and case (there would be no reason for this forum if we all did). At the same time, if we are wrong, we are wrong.

Unfortunately, in this case, the correctable error procedure would not have helped this coach. This crew of officials did not believe that an error had been made -- in fact were quite adamant that they had gotten it right. Therefore, with no "error" there could be no "correction" in their minds.

If a coach calls me over in a calm manner and says Ref your enforcement/interpretation is wrong, we can have a short discussion about it. If he references something from the book (without getting it out), - I'll listen and I will discuss it with my partners and if we agree he is right we will change it.
However, if the book comes out and he wants us to look in it - it is trying to influence an officals decison, period, and also showing up the officials, and they need to look at that section of the book also.

A couple of years ago I was the R on a game and the U2 (rookie) made a call and the coach pulled out a book, and started to try to show my partner where he was wrong about a call.
After about 30 seconds I went over removed my partner from the conversation by asking him what the issue was, I then asked the coach what the issue was - the coach told me and then went back into the book.
I told the coach that no mater what he found in that book he needs to look up bench technical section about trying to influence an officials decision - while he was waiting for the game to end from the locker room, - he now has 30 seconds to leave the gym. By the way the coach was wrong.

The administration appealed to the state regarding the ejection, in the meeting the state said clearly the coach was wrong in the manner he went about doing it, and the ejection was proper.

The rule that says the coach cannot attempt to influence a call.

Correct...the coach calmly asked the question and was told he needed to sit down and be quiet. So how in the world would going to the table help fix the mistakes?:confused:

FWIW, I do disagree with OH about being an automatic; and in being a flagrant. He is putting the book away, though.

We'll have to agree to disagree on that - the T is automatic, I do not see anyway around that. Bringing out the book is going to cuase that T

We can talk about it- s/he can tell me I'm wrong, and if I am not sure, I'll check with my partner/s, (hopefully - if we were wrong they have already made the correction), if we agree that s/he is right we will change what is wrong, or fess up and move on. (Been there, done that, paid the fine). I'll even make an appointment to discuss it after the contest to discuss

I might relent on the One and Done - if there is a calm exchange, it might be possible to let them stay. I am trying for the kinder - gentler me this year.

I don't know what 'automatic' means in the context of calling a T.

It might mean: requires no judgment. But that's never true: we always must interpret what a coach or player is doing and saying and then determine whether that behavior merits a T according to the rules and traditions of the game.

It might mean: some behavior always warrants a T. But, people and sports being what they are, we can always concoct a situation -- perhaps highly improbable -- where the behavior might not earn a T.

The bottom line is: there is no substitute for a solid knowledge of the rules and practical experience with enforcing them. In my experience, some technical fouls are easier than others to call and to justify, but none of them is "automatic" in either of these senses.

CMHCoachNRef
I agree with you about if I get a call wrong - by rule not judgement that one should fix it and eat your crow.

however - If the coach knows you're wrong he will know why should be able to make their case w/o the book. If not getting the book out isn't going to help.

I encourage coaches to become rules savay, know them and call us out when in the rare occasions we kick one, but do it in a professional manner.

Think of it this way, If I make a call in a game and the coach says "you are wrong", I pull out a rule book and show him in the rule book where he is actually wrong. (I have this dream often) :D
Would that be appropriate behavior for me as an official?
Would I not be showing disrespect to the coach by showing it to him in the book in front of the whole place?

I can see a letter of reprimand going in my file for that one! :p

The coach isn't supposed to be the expert on the floor, so how much worse is it actually for a coach to pull out a book (even calmly) and try to show up the official with the rule book in hand?

Mind you rarely would this conversation be done in a totally calm manner, also think about how many ways we as officals on this board can read a rule and come up with something different, now we are going to add the coaches interpretation into it.

Book on bench bad thing!
Book in ref's pocket bad thing!

OHBBREF -- A dream I have on a regular basis is when a coach asks, "How can you call that?"

I always want to respond with.

"Coach how could you keep running the same play over again when the defense has it figured out."

or

"Coach if your full court press was meant to make this a fast pace layup after layup affair then I think you have succeeded in creating a juggernaut."

or

"Coach, are you really going to put HIM/HER in NOW?????"

But you get the point. Like Seinfeld, I have always wanted to heckle a coach while I was officiating.

YIKES, YIKES, AND MORE YIKES!!!! I agree with others that this is stupid! How many protests does a coach get? What if you have a coach that totally doesn't know the rules, or worse, one of those coaches who THINKS he/she KNOWS, the rules (i.e. slapping the backboard, etc). Ten minutes, oh well you all get the point...

Not all coaches are you.

Other coaches (and I would say a majority) would use the book to try to intimidate the official or work up the crowd. Or, in a case I had, read the rule in the wrong way to try to get a ruling to go in the coach's favor (it was pregame, he contended a visiting player dunked "by definition" when the kid dropped the ball from above into the basket -- then he threw the rulebook on the table on top of the book I was checking and I was too stunned to recognize this right away as the technical or flagrant technical it should've been).

If I lived in Missouri, I would tolerate the process. It's part of the gig. In my current games, I would pick myself off the floor after seeing a coach with a rule book and kindly ask him to put it away, telling him I'd talk to him about anything, but he wasn't going to use a prop as part of the process. Matter of fact, I wouldn't talk to him until the book was put away and if it wasn't put away in a timely manner, we'd be shooting free throws.

Hey Rocky,

Took a little liberty and added a new scenario. It didn't happen in this game by chance, did it :D

2nd Quarter - the officials allowed 7’-3” A6 substitute to replace 5’-7” A1 for a jump ball situation. The coach stands up and asks (not yelling or anything) why are we having a jump ball and why are you allowing him to be replaced by this 10 foot dude. Official tells him "Because I want to see how high he can jump." Coach says "But it should be our ball based on the alternating possession procedure." Official - "You need to sit down and be quiet, coach and watch how high he can jump." :eek:

No, but to be perfectly honest I wouldn't have been very surprised if it had!:eek:

Around here, coach pulls out a rule book, and s/he will be sitting for the remainder of the game. No exceptions.

I am flabbergasted by the "Missouri Rule". How can something like that ever by justified? Wow!

I tend to agree, but on the other hand, how can something like what happened in my OP ever be justified? And to know that there is no recourse at all, well...if the coach had kept questioning the shooting of the free throws, I have absolutely no doubt that the official who told the coach to "sit down and be quiet" would have T'd the coach. So maybe the "Missouri Rule" goes too far, but where's the happy medium to deal with situations like in the OP???:confused:

On the flip side, it did give me a good opportunity to talk with my two sons about being resilient and fighting through adverse conditions - and no, I did not throw the officials under the bus in that conversation (which was hard, because I really wanted to :mad:).

I agree that if the coach had continued he would have got the T - just because the R had to justify his postion.

The happy medium?
I am not sure where that is but part of it comes from us, training - mentoring and boards like this that help people learn the rules. By creating a bigger pool of well qualifed officials in any area - those that do not meet muster will be forced to either step up and improve or not have any games to work.

The other thing is that the assigners and commissioners of leagues need to get rid of these old boy networks - a lot of stuff gets overlooked because of friendships.

Wow, how could you avoid it?!? Did you at least tell your kids the refs were wrong? i admire your loyalty, but I can't imagine pulling that off myself.