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Clark Kent Wed Jan 07, 2009 02:01pm

Inbounds foul?
 
Girls Soph game. Game is tied with 28 seconds left. A1 has the ball for a designated spot trow-in along B's end line. B is putting on a full court press. I administer the throw-in and tell A1 that she can move back as far as she needs to as well as told B1 not to cross the black end line. B1 obeys and comes right up to the end line but never crosses the line, jumping and yelling to prevent the throw-in. A1 either didn't hear me tell her she could move back (which I doubt) or didn't care to hear and is 6 inches from the end line. After 3 seconds of not being able to get a pass in and getting frusterated by the lack of space A1 using the ball pushes B1 in the stomach and displacing her and allowing her to inbound the ball to A2.

Is this an foul on A1 (obviously not a team control foul, because it was before the ball was inbounded)? I'd like to hear feedback and opinions on how to deal with this situation.

slow whistle Wed Jan 07, 2009 02:14pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clark Kent (Post 565739)
Girls Soph game. Game is tied with 28 seconds left. A1 has the ball for a designated spot trow-in along B's end line. B is putting on a full court press. I administer the throw-in and tell A1 that she can move back as far as she needs to as well as told B1 not to cross the black end line. B1 obeys and comes right up to the end line but never crosses the line, jumping and yelling to prevent the throw-in. A1 either didn't hear me tell her she could move back (which I doubt) or didn't care to hear and is 6 inches from the end line. After 3 seconds of not being able to get a pass in and getting frusterated by the lack of space A1 using the ball pushes B1 in the stomach and displacing her and allowing her to inbound the ball to A2.

Is this an foul on A1 (obviously not a team control foul, because it was before the ball was inbounded)? I'd like to hear feedback and opinions on how to deal with this situation.

Wow that is a new one...well did the throw in end when it was legally touched by B1 who was inbounds, and therefore by A1 also touching it, the ball is out of bounds off of A1, award B the ball at the spot? The option is always available for a tech if you view the act to be unsportsmanlike, but I'm not sure this would warrant a tech...I don't believe you can have a personal foul here - the definition references illegal contact with a variety of body parts, but the ball isn't mentioned...interested to hear other opinions on this one.

just another ref Wed Jan 07, 2009 02:15pm

Like most things, this has been discussed here more than once. I see it as a common foul on A1.

10-6-1: A player shall not......push.......an opponent by extending arms.

The fact that the ball is used to do the actual pushing seems insignificant to me.

AKOFL Wed Jan 07, 2009 02:16pm

You could get her with an intentional foul i guess, or you could call her for an OOB violation since the ball touched another player on the court and then her OOB. That might be the lesser of two evils. A intentional foul right here seem preety harsh, close game, possible freethrows. Not saying I wouldn't do it, just depends on how hard she pushed the girl. Sometimes they leave us with little choice. I'm sure I'll here it for this but it wouldn't be the same forum if I didn't.:)

fullor30 Wed Jan 07, 2009 02:19pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by slow whistle (Post 565743)
Wow that is a new one...well did the throw in end when it was legally touched by B1 who was inbounds, and therefore by A1 also touching it, the ball is out of bounds off of A1, award B the ball at the spot? The option is always available for a tech if you view the act to be unsportsmanlike, but I'm not sure this would warrant a tech...I don't believe you can have a personal foul here - the definition references illegal contact with a variety of body parts, but the ball isn't mentioned...interested to hear other opinions on this one.

This is a good one................I'm with you on ruling regarding legally touched, just a quick guess.

deecee Wed Jan 07, 2009 02:45pm

OOB on A1.

Clark Kent Wed Jan 07, 2009 02:56pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by slow whistle (Post 565743)
Wow that is a new one...well did the throw in end when it was legally touched by B1 who was inbounds, and therefore by A1 also touching it, the ball is out of bounds off of A1, award B the ball at the spot? The option is always available for a tech if you view the act to be unsportsmanlike, but I'm not sure this would warrant a tech...I don't believe you can have a personal foul here - the definition references illegal contact with a variety of body parts, but the ball isn't mentioned...interested to hear other opinions on this one.

I don't think by Rule 4-42-4 that the throw-in has ended, so I don't know how it could be OOB on team A.....

Clark Kent Wed Jan 07, 2009 02:58pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by just another ref (Post 565744)
Like most things, this has been discussed here more than once. I see it as a common foul on A1.

10-6-1: A player shall not......push.......an opponent by extending arms.

The fact that the ball is used to do the actual pushing seems insignificant to me.

I'd have to agree that having the ball in her (or his) possession and using it to ward off the defender doesn't negate the common foul found in 10-6-1.

just another ref Wed Jan 07, 2009 02:59pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by deecee (Post 565766)
OOB on A1.


A1 is legally out of bounds. Throw in has not ended.

Adam Wed Jan 07, 2009 03:00pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by slow whistle (Post 565743)
Wow that is a new one...well did the throw in end when it was legally touched by B1 who was inbounds, and therefore by A1 also touching it, the ball is out of bounds off of A1, award B the ball at the spot? The option is always available for a tech if you view the act to be unsportsmanlike, but I'm not sure this would warrant a tech...I don't believe you can have a personal foul here - the definition references illegal contact with a variety of body parts, but the ball isn't mentioned...interested to hear other opinions on this one.

Quote:

Originally Posted by AKOFL (Post 565745)
You could get her with an intentional foul i guess, or you could call her for an OOB violation since the ball touched another player on the court and then her OOB. That might be the lesser of two evils. A intentional foul right here seem preety harsh, close game, possible freethrows. Not saying I wouldn't do it, just depends on how hard she pushed the girl. Sometimes they leave us with little choice. I'm sure I'll here it for this but it wouldn't be the same forum if I didn't.:)

Quote:

Originally Posted by fullor30 (Post 565747)
This is a good one................I'm with you on ruling regarding legally touched, just a quick guess.

Quote:

Originally Posted by deecee (Post 565766)
OOB on A1.

You cannot call OOB on A1 here. Unless the ball has been released for a throwin, the throwin is not over so A1 has the right to hold it while out of bounds.

If B1 grabs the ball, you have a held ball; not OOB on A1. Same concept.

Call the personal foul. You could conceivably call a technical foul for unsporting conduct, but I think a personal foul is best here.

Scratch85 Wed Jan 07, 2009 03:01pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clark Kent (Post 565774)
I don't think by Rule 4-42-4 that the throw-in has ended, so I don't know how it could be OOB on team A.....

I am having a hard time determining my call on this one, but I agree the throw-in has not ended and OOB would not be correct. Would it be OOB if the thrower held the ball over the line and the defender slapped it but did not cause the thrower to drop the ball? IMO, no, you just play on and continue your count.

I am going with it is a foul or no call. And like I said, I am not sure which:confused:

Adam Wed Jan 07, 2009 03:04pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scratch85 (Post 565785)
I am having a hard time determining my call on this one, but I agree the throw-in has not ended and OOB would not be correct. Would it be OOB if the thrower held the ball over the line and the defender slapped it but did not cause the thrower to drop the ball? IMO, no, you just play on and continue your count.

I am going with it is a foul or no call. And like I said, I am not sure which:confused:

Think if the players are all inbounds during play. A1, standing at the top of the key with the ball, is similarly frustrated with B1's close defense and uses the ball to push her away.

Call the PC on this, IMO. It's an advantage not intended by the rules.

ma_ref Wed Jan 07, 2009 03:06pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clark Kent (Post 565739)
A1 using the ball pushes B1 in the stomach and displacing her and allowing her to inbound the ball to A2.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scratch85 (Post 565785)
I am going with it is a foul or no call. And like I said, I am not sure which:confused:

Clearly there is an advantage gained, so how can you have a no-call here?

just another ref Wed Jan 07, 2009 03:12pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snaqwells (Post 565790)
Think if the players are all inbounds during play. A1, standing at the top of the key with the ball, is similarly frustrated with B1's close defense and uses the ball to push her away.

Call the PC on this, IMO. It's an advantage not intended by the rules.

It's not a PC.:)

Adam Wed Jan 07, 2009 03:13pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by just another ref (Post 565797)
It's not a PC.:)

Not in the OP, but it is in my altered situation. :)


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