Foul on shot causes travel.
 

As a player is going up for a try he is bumped. The bump causes the pivot foot that had been lifted on the try to return to the floor before the ball is released. The ball is released shortly after the pivot foot returns to the floor and the ball goes through the basket.
Do you count the basket or award two shots and disallow the basket.
I have also seen the bump cause the shooter to drag his pivot foot before releasing the ball on the try.
Thanks for the help.

I doubt if I'll see this travel if I'm watching the contact/foul.

Why would you disallow the basket? He was in the act of shooting.

once the shooting motion starts, (ART. 3 . . . The try starts when the player begins the motion which habitually precedes the release of the ball. ) if the foul occurs after that point it is a shooting foul, if it occurs prior to that point, it is not a shooting foul

Fairly black and white the pivot foot has nothing to do with a try, unless you rule a travel before hand.

I will add if it's an airborne shooter who gets fouled, once he returns to the floor with the ball, it's gonna be two shots.

Of course it's a shooting foul. That wasn't the question.

I just had this the other night. A1 gathers for his shot, gets bumped, then drags his pivot foot before releasing the ball.

Also what about a fast break where the player gathers for the shot, takes a hard smack, then takes an extra step before releasing the shot?

SECTION 11 CONTINUOUS MOTION
ART. 1 . . . Continuous motion applies to a try or tap for field goals and free throws, but it has no significance unless there is a foul by any defensive player during the interval which begins when the habitual throwing movement starts a try or with the touching on a tap and ends when the ball is clearly in flight.
ART. 2 . . . If an opponent fouls after a player has started a try for goal, he/she is permitted to complete the customary arm movement, and if pivoting or stepping when fouled, may complete the usual foot or body movement in any activity while holding the ball. These privileges are granted only when the usual throwing motion has started before the foul occurs and before the ball is in flight.

ART. 3 . . . Continuous motion does not apply if a teammate fouls after a player has started a try for a goal and before the ball is in flight. The ball becomes dead immediately.

I'll probably count those, just because I'm not watching the feet so closely when I've already called contact.

Have you ever seen a high level official wave a shot off for this reason? I haven't, and I doubt I'd want to be the first.

I am guessing on this one you will need some help from your partners on the travel.

Which you won't get, because I would be scoring the basket (in my mind) right with the calling official.

I'm missing your point Indy. I know I lead my association in ruling 'continous motion' on fouls. The "on the floor" call is a pet-peeve of mine.

Even if the player obviously travels before releasing the shot? The play I had the other night A1 obviously dragged his pivot foot for all to see. I have no problem telling either coach that the foul caused the travel but I'm still giving him 2 shots.

The act of shooting ends when an airborne shooter returns to the floor.

Two FTs, no basket.

Wow you're quick, I was editing and put in some have said but NOT you! Then just deleted it.

Ha! Talk about a New York second!!

I'll delete the evidence. :D

So if you start you shooting motion and I push you and you take 3 steps you are going to going to let your partner count the basket?

Three steps, I'll see. Two steps, I'll see. Pivot foot dragging, I probably won't see.

A player cannot commit a violation or foul after they've been fouled, and expect that the shot will still count if successful.

If they could, a little bit of pondering will make you realize that players could take advantage of this, and how they would do it. Since we don't see players taking advantage of this situation, there must not be this situation to be taken advantage of! Whistle the foul, waive the basket off and signal the reason why: travelling. Award 2 or 3 shots.

You weren't at Watergate were you???:D

A player cannot commit a violation or foul after they've been fouled, and expect that the shot will still count if succesful.

What page in the rule book is this on?

obviously not. :)

Say A1 gets fouled, and then takes 3 steps, releases the ball, and it goes in. Are you going to count it?

The one where a ball becomews dead if a violation occurs and there's no exception for "continuous motion".

ROBERT E. HARRISON
"The bump causes the pivot foot that had been lifted on the try to return to the floor before the ball is released. The ball is released shortly after the pivot foot returns to the floor and the ball goes through the basket."

Therefore what BBR & Juggler says is correct.

If you are quick enough to realize that the foul caused the travel, then you should be quick enough to know that the "travel" ends the try and no points can then be awarded...

Shoot 2 FT's and score no points.

Yes. You and Bob are correct. Continuous motion does not apply since the violation occurred and before the ball had left his hand. 2 shots.

Snaqs:

Don't be so quick with that response. NFHS, NCAA, and FIBA rules:

PLAY: A1 is dribbling toward Team A's basket. While both feet are in the air, A1 stops his dribble by gathering (with apologies to the NBA) the ball into both hands. In one continuous motion A1 lands on his left foot, then jumps off his left foot and lands on his right foot, then jumps off is right foot, and then releases the ball for a field goal attempt. The field goal attempt is successful.

QUESTION: If A1 is fouled at any point after he stopped his dribble and before he returns to the floor after releasing the ball for his field goal attepmt, has he be fouled in the act of shooting?

RULING: Yes. A1 was airborne three (3) different times during his field goal attempt. See NFHS Rules R4-S11-A1 and A2. The NCAA and FIBA rules concur.

MTD, Sr.

Good point, Mark. Obviously, that's not the play I was envisioning.

I talk about FIBA rules: the act of shooting ends when the player returns with both feet on the floor after releasing the ball (15.2).

But the problem of the OP is different; Robert was only asking about the basket, not about shooting attempt. It's clear that traveling before releasing the ball, but after being fouled, causes the ball to become dead: wave off the basket and award two FT. But I concur with others in saying that I'd not be looking very closely to the fouled player's feet.

Ciao

I'd have to see this play, but I don't picture a shooting motion that starts before the first landing in this case.

By rule, the shooting motion starts when as a player is gathering the ball for a layup; well before the first landing. Too many officials don't give them this, though.

This is based on what?

This wording:

I think this is a stretch. A player may do anything after he "gathers the ball" at the end of a dribble. Also, MTD's play could be any kind of shot, not necessarily a layup. A player often shoots a fadeaway after a jump stop.

A player may do anything after he jumps for a shot, too, but that doesn't matter. See the whole play.

I have....once. Took a brief explanation to the coach and he agreed because he saw his player take the extra steps.

Extra steps I can understand; 99% of kids give up by then. I just don't know if I'd be able to see the pivot foot slide.

I'll let you know if that happens in the next 22 years of my "career." LOL.

Garden variety travel? I probably won't even be looking for it.

Well, I saw it....and administered accordingly.

eg:

I knew that but I think that is a minor point. NCAA Men's use to have that same proviso but is not in line with NFHS and NCAA Women's. But I agree that once we see the contact we tend to forbet about the player's feet.

MTD, Sr.

just another ref:

Look at it this way: What is the first thing, that a player who is dribbling the ball, have to do to shoot the ball? Stop his dribble. The stopping of the dribble is the start of the act of shooting.

Going back to my OP. While the illegal contact can occur very early in the "potential" act of shooting. Go ahead and sound your whistle when the contact occurs, but see the whole play. Why? If at any time after the illegal contact A1 passes the ball instead of releasing the ball for a field attempt the foul is a common foul and not a foul against a player in the act of shooting.

MTD, Sr.

not necessarily

just another ref:

It is if he ends up shooting the ball, :D.

MTD, Sr.

A player may pick up his dribble and stand still for any period of time and then "end up shooting the ball."

It's all about the habitual shooting motion, not just picking up your dribble. On a player shooting a layup, this starts early.

The player doing a jump stop could also start this motion on his way down as he gathers the ball for his shot.

Just Another Ref:

Read what Snaqs wrote in his post that precedes this one. If the play is continuous, yes, the stopping of the dribble does start the act of shooting. In your example it does not.

MTD, Sr.

Reference, please.

I think I know what you're trying to say, yet wording imho is not clear.

To say the stopping of the dribble is the start of the act of shooting by it self is erroneous. Secondly, we've all encountered a player attempting a try and by the force of the foul, alters their attempt and passes. It is an officials judgement whether or not he was in the act of shooting. No rule, just common sense.

Bob:

My statement refers to the play I described in my OP.

NFHS R4-S11-A2 states: "If an opponent fouls after a player has started a try for goal, he/she is permitted to complete the customary arm movement, and if pivoting or stepping when fouled, may complete the usual foot or body movement in any activity while holding the ball. These privileges are granted only when the usual throwing motion has started before the foul occurs and before the ball is in flight."

Going back to my play: If A1 releases the ball for a field goal attempt, anytime after he was fouled, then A1's attempt started when he stopped his dribble. If A1, passes the ball to A2 at anytime after he was fouled, then A1 was not fouled during the act of shooting. The definition of continuous motion does not imply a patient whistle but does imply that the official see the whole play. The official must recognize the foul but watch the whole play.

MTD, Sr.

To fullor30.
 

fullor30:

1) You said: "To say the stopping of the dribble is the start of the act of shooting by it self is erroneous."

I don't think you understand the defintition of continuous motion. Go back and reread my posts in this thread. Not ever stoppage of a dribble is the start of the act of shooting but when it is part of one continuous act of play by one player it can be the start of the act of shooting.


2) You said: "We've all encountered a player attempting a try and by the force of the foul, alters their attempt and passes. It is an officials judgement whether or not he was in the act of shooting."

I do not disagree with you. That is why we are paid the big (:D) dollars to officiate.


3) You said: "No rule, just common sense."

Lock your common sense in the car when you arrive at the game site. Use the rules and logic instead.

MTD, Sr.

I'm 95% certain that there's an NFHS interp to the effect that "if A1 was inthe actr of shooting at the time of the foul, then it's a shooting foul even if A1 passes after the foul."

mark, I understand continuous motion. I'm being nit picky in your writing which the stand alone sentence "The stopping of the dribble is the start of the act of shooting" is wrong. What you meant to say............oh never mind we both agree.

Yes we do get paid the big bucks!

I equate common sense with logic........again semantics.

I feel for you with that Buckeye loss, I was pullin' for them.

Bob:

To be honest, I do not ever remember just an interpretation. In general, a live ball becames dead when a foul occurs. Continuous motion provides an exception that prevents the defense from gaining advantage by committing a foul. One still has to see the entire play.

MTD, Sr.