Youth "No zone rule" looking for examples
 

Do a 6th grade and down youth league. I have no problem interpenetrating "No zone defense" rule, but I have 15+ years experience. Some times I reff with kids not much older them 15. So there was a problem with interpretations.

What happened was some reffs let the offense set up out side the 3 point lane and play a NBA isolation play, with the rule stating the defense needed to be within 5 feet, there was no help. A team road this offense to the finals were they ran into me, well all year I called it like this; when your person is 25 feet from the rim, my 5 feet is closer to 15. Where you should be playing man to man.

Well this year they wrote in to the rules (with no imput from reffs) if your man is outside the 3 point line you have to be too. OK, this is funny, in last year rules, must had blocked it out, know I did not call it

I looked around the net and found all the places I looked at just leaves it at no zone and leaves it up to interpretation.

So my question: Does anyone use a expanded "no zone defense" rule and what is it and how does it work? Let me know level too.

Thanks
Happy New year too

The only blanket no zone rule I've worked with allowed a double team, but no triple, if the ball was in the paint. This way, even if the the offense used an isolation play to take one defender out, they were also taking out a weapon of their own to use in beating the double team. I thought that worked pretty well.

The ball handler in the paint could draw a double team, but all other defenders had to stay on their person, and that meant facing their person, or within about 2 feet. If a defender tried to sort of slither off and pretend to guard while actually guarding the ball handler, it was a defensive violation, and we had the option to call it, and put the ball back in with a throw-in. When the refs enforced it strictly, it pretty well put the kibosh on the isolation play.

Why ???
 

The one and only year that my daughter played recreation basketball, there was a "you have to play man to man defense" rule. Whenever one of my daughter's teammates would get beat, she would leave her man to help on defense, and was told by the officials (parents/coaches/volunteers) that this was not allowed. Also, there were no free throws in this league. She was a pretty decent player, and every time she would drive to the basket, she would get hammered, and the only penalty was that her team would get to inbound the ball. She became quite frustrated, as was I, and the next year we both decided that she should try out for the travel team, and play "real" basketball.

Does anyone else think the no-zone rule for kids is a really bad idea? It has a strong tendency to turn the game into a one on one contest. It is difficult to enforce, no matter how it is worded, because with young kids, it is often difficult to tell what kind of defense they are playing. Let them quadruple team the stud. This will teach him to pass the ball.

I ran into this several years ago with a travel game. Coach with a lightening fast point guard would spread floor almost doing a four corners, then run an iso play. I did as you did and allowed defenders to play off their man a good ten feet. Coach kicked and screamed........I would hear nothing of it. He was only interested in playing 1 on 1 and ran the play ad infinitum.

These were 7th graders. Hey, they're guarding their man, nothing says you have to be closely guard your man.

I think Juulie may be referring to the local kids rec league in my town. Years ago, we didn't allow zones at any grade level. If an offensive player was within 20 feet of the basket, they had to be guarded. Over the years, we changed that for three reasons. One - it was incredibly difficult to teach to new, young refs. Two - experienced refs who worked our league had difficulty with it because it was different from everything else they worked so they weren't used to recognizing it. Three - it came to pass that we felt zone defenses were a more accepted part of the game.

Now we only disallow the zones in 3rd and 4th grade games. They're OK in everything from 5th grade through HS. The change hasn't had a negative effect on the games and there's no plans to change it.

Ah yes, the memories of youth rec league ball. :( Man, how hard I try to forget! Great kids, wanna be coaches, and stupid parents. I remember once having a parent scream "3 seconds in the lane." To which I looked at her and replied, "OK. I've got ten girls in the lane. Which one do you want me to call it on." The head of that league was a truly great D1 player who later played for a while in Europe. I remember him shaking his head in disbelief at some of the things that he saw or heard.

The boys youth league I have worked with for a number of years uses this for 3rd/4th grade. I don't officiate the 3rd/4th but had input on the written rule.

If you want hard and fast how our refs are to call it...we use the 6' closely guarded rule...if a player is in the FC, the defense must be within 6' of their man. Now they also do not allow any screens above the top of the 3point line extended, double team only in the lane.

Finally, they also have implemented an isolation rule that keeps one or two players from controlling the game and taking all the shots.

They have set up "infractions" if you will...two infractions of zone, double teaming, back court defense lead to a T on the 3rd violation. Each one is noted as it's own violation on the league score sheets. So, 1 Backcourt + 2 isos does not equal a T. Each infraction is counted on it's own happening.


Now, In the travel league I coach in (3rd Grade Girls), must play man to man D and can only double team below FT line in a helping manner.

As Mark P said, it's hard to officiate it because where i come from, any D can be played. But we use the same group of guys each year and they are very consistent in the manner with which they call it.

Philosophically, I understand why you make young kids guard man to man....nobody can shoot outside and they would just pack in a zone and never allow any penetration....That's not right either...Save the zone for later. Besides, playing man to man will make you a MAN! :D

Our middle school leagues, past and present have some form of this rule.

The old league:
* Man to man was required all game
* Double teaming is allowed in the paint.
* Players can switch or play help & recover d.
* Repeated violations are supposed to be two shots and the ball (most officials never wanted to call this though after the first warning :rolleyes: )

The new league:
* 5 periods (3 first half periods of 4:00; 2 second half periods of 6:00). This is to guarantee everyone playing time, though that can also be done with 4 quarter, IMO.
* Man to Man is required in the first half. Switching & help and recorver d is permitted, but trapping seems to be completely forbidden in the first half . Zone is legal in the second half.
* Nothing specified as to what to do for repeated violations.

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There is one coach in this league who feels playing a saggy 2-3 zone inside the 3 point line passes as man defense. We also have another coach who thinks having her player under the basket when ours is at the 3 point line is also man defense. Aside form them, though, eveyone seems to follow the rules as best as can be.

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Funny thing, too. CYO has rules regarding pressing and when pressure defenses can be used. I always keep my copy of the CYO rules at the table, knowing some officials probably have no idea what the rules are and would appreciate having something to refer to. At our opener this year, I had an official tell me to throw those rules in the garbage when I let him know what the league rules were. :confused: I did have to chuckle to myself when he later admitted he didn't know our CYO changed a pressing rule 2 years ago. (That's why one doesn't throw the league-specific rules in the garbage :p)

I prefer, if you're going to have a rule, to allow double teaming any player with the ball at any time any where. Any player without the ball may not be double teamed. It prevents the isolation plays while allowing the benefits of preventing zones at young ages.

Personally, I hate the rule, but I don't run a kids' rec league, so....

I sorta do, and I hate the rule, too.

Catholic School Rules ...
 

Same here, for Catholic School league:

Younger Junior Varsity (4th and 5th grade):
Players who cannot reach the basket from the free throw line will be permitted to move up as determined by the officials.
No backcourt pressure.
The defense must drop back to inside the three-point arc.
When a team is ahead by ten points their defense shall drop back inside the three-second lane, and cannot reach through to play defense. They can come outside the arc to recover a loose ball.
Offensive teams must attempt to advance the ball. One warning, thereafter a five second count resulting in turnover.

Older Junior Varsity (5th and 6th grade):
No back court pressure for the first seven weeks of the season, unless game within 10 points in 4th quarter.
Beginning week 8, when a team is ahead by ten points, their defense must drop back to the three-point arc.
With a 15-point lead, must play zone and no fast breaks.
Offensive teams must attempt to advance the ball. One warning, thereafter a five second count resulting in turnover.

There are no forfeits in the JV league. If a team has less than 5 players, ‘borrow’ players from another team.

Varsity (7th and 8th grade):
No press or fast breaks in second half with 20-point lead. “No pressing” is defined as any attempt to inhibit the offensive team from moving the ball from their backcourt to their frontcourt. If the offensive team is attempting to fast break, the defense may attempt to prohibit the fast break by picking up players at half court. Otherwise the defense will drop back into a zone, generally inside the three-point arc.
Teams ahead will not fast break. “Fast break” is defined as pushing the ball up the court past the defense, prior to the defensive team’s ability to set up their defense. If the defensive team is attempting to press, the offensive team may use whatever tactics are available to break the press.

Happy New Year.

Interesting to see what other youth leagues are doing...

We modified our backcourt guarding rule two years ago for 5th/6th. (3rd/4th still use only the last 2:00 of 3rd and 4th Q for full court press.)

No press after made baskets or dead balls and no direct pressure on the ball handler (we use the 6' closely guarded idea in BC for this). They can however guard players without the ball and steal passes or get loose balls.

It used to be no backcourt D at all until the 2:00 mark of Q3 and Q4...Previous, if a kid made a pass to another running down court and it hit him in the back and was just bouncing free in the BC, the defense could not touch it...in short, they had to get back past halfcourt.

They can guard in BC anytime now with those mods in the first half of the season.

Second half of the season, they must follow those rules for Q1 and Q2. Then in Q3/Q4 they can FCP anytime as long as no more than 10 point lead.

My thought was that it was natural for a kid to play D after a rebound or stolen pass and too many were getting called for BC-D...we as a Board felt it encouraged good passing and ball handling and it has really helped with the flow of games too.

yes.

If you have younger kids, it's not. Packing in a 2-3 and forcing 3rd or 4th grade kids to shoot jumpshots (read airballs) is not teaching anything. It's not teaching on ball defense, it's not really teaching a kid how to play off ball, on the line, up the line D and allowing them to learn floor spacing.

As much zone that is played these days...I know why it's played but in all seriousness...it's to help the weaker defenders who can man up and shut somebody down or force a bad shooting team into outside shots. On the upside, it does promote team passing and cutting...so I guess there's something to be said for it.

Youth "No zone rule" looking for examples
 

As has been pointed out, the problem with allowing 4th and 5th grade teams to play zone defense is that coaches are able to avoid teaching any defensive fundamentals while being successful since many 4th and 5th graders cannot consistently make shots from outside 12 - 15 feet.

All defenses -- man-to-man, match-ups and zones -- require man-to-man principles in order to be successful. If coaches are merely allowed to pack players in the lane, these fundamentals are not being taught.

Years ago I administered a 4th - 6th grade boys basketball program. From the start of the 4th - 6th grade program, a man-to-man requirement was in effect. However, the year before I took over, several coaches were taking advantage of the man-to-man rules (all defenders had to be within 6' of their men).

We instituted a number of changes to the rules that were designed to teach man-to-man defense that included helpside principles -- which had never been addressed in the past. Our rules were not designed to be simple to enforce (as most man-to-man rules are). They were designed to force the coaches to teach the fundamentals of man-to-man defense which are utilized regardless whether a team is playing man-to-man defense or zone defense.

Our man-to-man rules were in effect for virtually the entire game for the 4th graders (except last minute and OT) and 5th graders (except for the last three minutes and OT). The rules were in effect for the first half for 6th grade teams.


Our rules required the following (sorry in advance for the length):

A. Player defending the player with the ball must attempt to be within a closely guarded distance whenever the ball handler was within 20 feet of the basket.
B. All other defenders of players on the ball side of the floor must be in a denial position (within 6' of the opponent) except
1. when the opponent is more than 20' from the basket,
2. when "helping" to stop the ballhandler from attacking the basket.
C. All other defenders of players on the non-ball side of the floor may assume a good "help side" position in the lane. These players must react to the movement of their opponent including:
1. obtaining a denial position should their opponent move to the ball side of the floor,
2. obtaining a denial position should the ball move to their opponent's side of the floor.
D. When defending "Stack" offenses, only the top player in the stack needed to be guarded (this was to prevent teams from utilizing stacks to create the 1v1 plays described in the original post) the other players could assume a good helpside position.
E. Trapping is prohibited except in the following situations:
1. two offensive players are within 3' of the ball.
2. in the lane when the ballhandler is driving to the basket when a defender is helping to stop a drive.
3. during transition during a fastbreak when the defense is not able to be organized.
Such situations are not to be penalized.

While the rules seemed somewhat complicated on paper, the enforcement was actually rather simple. We wanted to force each player to learn the fundamentals of man-to-man defense. As the coaches began to learn how the rules were being enforced, they began to implement offenses requiring team play and team movement.

We were very happy with the results over the eight years I administered this program.

Guys thanks for all the input. Great stuff.

Now can anyone get me to drop 20 lbs before having to do 3 games Saturday? Decided not to do High school since I could only do one night a week, so I have not done much since golf stopped 2 months ago. So glad it is a nice small gym.

I like what you guys have done here...

I officiate in a 4th-8th grade travel league that has a "no zone" rule for 4th and 5th grades.

Verbatim from the League web site:

USE OF ZONES AT 4th and 5th GRADE LEVEL:

Rationale of the rule: The following rule is intended to discourage teams from using zones at the 4th and 5th grade level. The general intent of the rule is to avoid teams from 'packing it in' and forcing teams to beat a zone by superior outside shooting, quick passing, or 'filling the gaps'. The general feeling is that players at this level do not have the offensive skills to 'break' a zone successfully, thus the zone creates an unfair advantage to the team playing a zone defense. Further, since playing a zone creates a defensive advantage, allowing it would discourage teams from using man-to-man defense, and players would not learn this very important fundamental skill.

Implementing such a rule needs to address zone presses during the allowed 'pressing' period, traps, and help defense. The 'flip' side of no zones is to discourage teams on the offensive side from isolating one strong player on one side of the court and going 'one on one' for the entire game or at least for an extended number of times.

The rule:
I. No zones are allowed in the 4th and 5th grade level.
II. In the frontcourt, between the 3 point arc and the timeline, 'help' defense is not allowed. This means there is no trapping or double teaming.
III. In the area between the 3 point arc and the 'paint', help defense is allowed. This means that a double team or a 'trap' would be allowed in this area.
IV. Inside the paint there is no restriction. The feeling here is that inside the paint there is so much traffic that it is too difficult for a referee to manage the type of defense being played.
V. In the last 2 minutes of the first half, and 4 minutes of the second half, teams may press full court, however this press must remain in a man to man defense (no zone). In short, they must be guarding their player, and not an area.
VI. The officials at the game site have the final responsibility for interpreting the violation. If there is no advantage being gained then the official in all likelihood may not call the violation. If any coach has an issue with the rule it is to be addressed with their league coordinator - NOT the referee or the league commissioner.
VII. The first violation of the rule will be a warning. .Subsequent violations will incur a direct technical foul on the coach.

My comments:

Please note rule VI: The officials decide if it is a zone. The most common zone violation I see is teams that play a one-man zone, with their big man in the middle of the paint preventing any layup. I will not make them guard their man in the corner, but they need to at least be on the side of the lane. I also do not let them stand in the middle not guarding anyone. I have started doing pregames with coaches in these grades to remind them of the general rule and the specific rule that the officials alone make the decision regarding a violation.

I once asked a coach to have one of his defenders guard his man. "Ref, I have been trying to get him to do that all year. If you can have any better luck, go ahead." I still laugh at that comment...and often use it in my pregame. These are 4th and 5th graders. And even though it is a travel league, there are many levels of play. Some kids just don't yet have the skill to guard a man.

Youth "No zone rule"
 

The true key to a successful implementation of "No zone rule" is support from ALL of the coaches. Typically, when such rules fail, it is due to a failure on the part of the coaches to understand that player development is much more important than wins/losses at these young ages.

When the coaches "buy in" to the concept, it is usually quite easy to referee these games.