Let's get right to the point, I have noticed that more women have been choosing mentors of the opposite sex. This
did not seem like a problem until one women official wanted more than a mentor and as a direct result some "hanky panky" to place and it has caused some problems. So my question is: Should Women Officials Seek A Mentor Of The Same Sex?

Great Question but no easy answer.
 

You should know better, we cannot have serious philisophical discussions like this Love. :D You might offend the "Politically Correct" crowd that is all over this board.

But seriously, I think they should only because Women Officials would know what Women officials go through. Not to say that Men cannot be helpful and compassionate about their needs, but Women to me know exactly what they go throught night in, night out with a room full of Men. Just like I have always looked for other officials that are the same race as me to look up to and to mentor me. Officials with my background have always had different discussions about things as it relates to us. I would think that Women might have a similar situation. There are just things I might try to understand, but being a Male I probably would not consider the challenges that Women go through mainly because I would not have experienced the same thing. I would not have a clue how to tell a Women what to think about and how to deal with Male coaches if they were doing Male games. I know that coaches make comments to them differently than they would to Male officials. I know fans do the same. I think a Women Official that has been down that road would be better suited for that conversation or mentoring.

I do not think it is a requirement, but I sure think it would help.

Peace

Should Women Officials Seek A Mentor Of The Same Sex?
 

If the men continue to mentor the women, then who will the women mentor?

The same as Men.
 

I think if you are asking if Women should have one mentor, I think that is not looking at the entire picture. I think officials of any gender and any race should have several mentors. I think if you only look for mentors that look like you or have the same private parts, you might be cheating yourself. But I do feel that you should have mentors that better understand you situation. Especially when many Women might not have other Women around them to look directly at for that mentoring. Officiating is basically officiating, but for the issues that are specific to that person's situation would be much better served by someone that is of the same gender and many times the same race.

Peace

Alright, I will let it loose! My nickname is Doug, I am a female women's collegiate official. Everyone is entitled to their opinion, and I respect that. But, this is one opinion i will never agree with. Do you (men) pick your parnters by race? Please understand, i am NOT trying to be racial! There is a minority of female officials. I think that would be the equivelent of females picking females. My parnter is a male, he is 28 years old, and is very good looking (the players tell me so...), BUT nothing will ever happen there because i'm too smart for that. Officiating is the most important thing in my life right now, and i can't risk losing my partner over as someone said "hanky panky". this is my two cents worth, but everyone is entitled to their opinion.

Should Women Officials Seek A Mentor Of The Same Sex
 

I am not saying that women should only have one mentor. I am just concerned with veteran officials with "motives"that have nothing to do with officiating. If this stuff continues then who will say that the "new" women officials who are looking for some guidance and direction in a new advocation get side tracked and may walk away from officiating without ever knowing if they could have been a very good official. Plus the flip side, what if these "vultures" are making a bad name for male referee's who have the new womens officials best interest at hand.

All officials, men and women, are responsible
for their own actions, on and off the court.
If there is any "hanky panky" going on, it is
a reflection of the individuals' poor
character and bad judgment. This temptation goes
on in all work environments. It is up to
the individuals to behave maturely and
professionally, and stick to their work only.

If this woman is doing as you say, and is
interested in more than just officiating,
then the man should abstain (no pun intended)
from working with her. Remember, if any
"hanky panky" occured, it took two people to
participate. Like we tell the kids, "Just
say No."

Officials are responsible for their own
education and development as referees. They
should seek to learn from the best sources
available, including camps, reading, video,
and veteran referees. They should desire to
learn especially from the best refs, whether they be
male or female. Having only one mentor is limiting,
I think. And let's face it, as for choosing only
female role models, there aren't that many in a
lot of areas.

A woman who takes her refereeing seriously just
wants to be viewed as a "referee," not a "women
referee." I have worked with one such referee,
and she is "one of the guys" while on the court
and does an excellent job. She is just "one of
the guys" off the court, too.

Also, I don't think you need to lose sleep
over the "Vultures Side-Tracking Innocent
Young Female Refs Who May Never Know Their
Potential" conspiracy. Sounds a little
far-fetched to me.

I think this question would apply in any vocation or advocation. As Rut said, it would be difficult (if not impossible) for me to relate to the way others treat women officials and the obstacles they face. That is where the counsel of another women is priceless. That said, I think an official should have more than one mentor. Why would someone not want to discuss the many facets of becoming a good official with the best officials. The mechanics, rules interpretations, rules application, game management issues, etc. don't change. Doesn't matter the sex of the official, a foul is still a foul.

As for the "hanky panky"...you just need to be an adult and do what is morally right...IMHO.

I think that it's fine for an official to have a mentor of the opposite gender. The only condition I would put on this is that both people should enter the relationship without a hidden agenda (e.g., he wants to get some hanky panky). As long as the mentoring relationship is the sole reason for beginning the partnership, I have no problem with it. I would not even have a problem if a personal, romantic relationship developed from the mentoring relationship; as long as neither person entered the relationship under false pretenses. They're adults, if they want to try to mix their personal lives with their officiating, that's their decision. As always, just my opinion.

Chuck

People pick officicals for all kinds of reasons. I know when I started I looked for officials that looked like me to see if my experiences were similar to others. I found that many African-American Officials shared similar experiences. Not so much because whites were treating us differently, but having to deal with Black coaches or predominately Black schools can be a challenge for many African-American Officials. But that is another discussion for another day.

It is nice to ask questions of an individual that has walked a similar path. When you have the opportunity to have someone of the same gender or same race that knowledge can be priceless (I am stealing that from LarryS BTW). But then again, I feel you should have mentors of all kind of officials from all different levels. I personally have individuals of all kinds of levels that I look up to and ask for advice. You should not limit yourself with the vast knowledge that is out there. You just might talk different things with different officials.

Peace

As a woman official myself, I would say that any official, regardless of gender or race, should choose the best mentor they can get, regardless of gender or race. However, I do think a woman may want to find a couple of other women to ask questions of, regardless of how good the mentor is. There are some things that men just aren't going to be able to help with. In our chapter, we have several very, very good women officials, but they are all busy and can only mentor so many other women. I have been mentored mostly by a man in our association (believe me, no hanky-panky issues), but I have called a couple of women at different times to ask questions about things that I thought Tom wouldn't have answers for. Also, there are a few women on this board who have e-mailed each other about different things.

Choose mentors who will help you become the best official you can be - regardless of race or gender...I am a white male and have 6 people I would consider my mentors: 2 are other white males, two are women, and two are African-American (one woman and one male)... heck, one of the white males is Canandian - so he's a foreigner! :) I chose each of them and approached them with the request to be my mentor based on their abilities, knowledge, and experience - not their race or gender...I can't honestly say I understand the positions of Juulie or Rut because I am not a woman or African-American, so haven't been in their shoes - but as an overall statement - choose mentors who will make you be better - don't limit yourself to race or gender issues...

I have to agree with Rocky Road.....Choose someone because they are a person not because of race, gender, National Origin, or ethnicity. Look at it this way...I have had great mentors in the past when I first started. Having someone who does not look like me gives me a perspective that i may not have looked at it the same way. We are all different one one way or another from everyone we meet. We all come from different backgrounds.
Bottom Line.....Why even bring up Gender or race?

AK ref SE

How do you find a mentor? Do associations have lists, or do you just find someone and ask?

Because it matters. For those of us that are involved in professions or anything for that where we are a great minority (by number, not social status necessarily) it is very helpful to have role-models that have similar background and understanding of what you are to face. This is not about political correctness, this is about reality. And if you have ever been a women or a game with a women during a boy's or men's college game, the coaches treat them drastically differently than the average male. They very much might have to know what to do or how to handle themselves without losing their cool or feeling that the world is against them. But the issue is much bigger than that and I know I do not go to certain individuals if they do not look like me. If I work in mostly rural or "cow" towns and I am the only person of my persuasion there, I think I might have a different set of challenges that someone that looks like the entire crowd or all the players and coaches on the floor. I know several white people that will not even set foot in and all-Black school to play another all-Black school. For someone Black or Hispanic we do this on the regular.

I do not think Charles Barkley made comments about any official in the way that he did about Violet Palmer. At least not calling them basically a "girl" and not being able to keep up with the Men on the court. I think that might be very gender specific. Women officials I think understand that and should seek that advice. But at the same time, you should have several types of people to help you out and should.

Peace

Rut, you don't know a person until you walk a mile in their shoes. You have NO comcept what it is like to be a female official!! Julie and others have brought up very good points, which i as a collegiate female official agree with. I percieve some of your comments to be very narrowminded and derrogetory. Here is some advice my mentor once told me "seek first to understand, then to be understood." I think that is something that we all need to work on (myself included), listining to others points, understanding their point of view, and then giving them ours. With a enraged coach, don't you usually first ask a question to difuse the situation, "coach, why do you believe that was goaltending?" you are seeking first to understand them, then you can respond, and the situation is handled more efficiently. I hope you become a outstanding offical, but this board was designed as a place for officials striving to get better to converse, assist, and be assisted in reaching their goals, and I would love to see this board stay a postive place, so others can gain the same knowledge i have from it. Good luck, and everyone please understand, my intentions wern't to offend anyone

Who said that?
 

I think that was my point. I do not know what it is like. But unless you are a Black Male, you do not know what it is like or deal with the many issues that I face. That is why I have a circle of Black officials that we all discuss issue of officiating as it relates to us. I would hope if any women official that is out there could, they would do the same thing with the people that they look up to.

I think I can understand more than you realize because I do have a Mother that works at a University, which she has been for 26 years as a Professor. And she was at one time the only Female Chairperson that University had and had to deal with many professional issues as it relates to her gender and race. I also have extensive conversations with her about many issues of professionalism and politics that she not only teaches about but has had to deal with in her long career. Especially the fact that she attended some very good school, much better than her peers at this University and others across the country.

I will never say I completely understand, but I sure as hell can empathize a bit and notices the challenges that women face in officiating or anything for that matter. I have seen gender roles all my life, live and in full color.

Peace

Rut -- Wow, your mother sounds like a fantastic person, and I wish I could know her, I wish my daughter (who is black) could know her!

Rocky road is right to say, "Choose a mentor who will make you better." The only thing to add, is that probably the person who can make you better, is someone who can answer your questions. If one person can't do it all, such as a woman who doesn't have time to take on another mentee, or a man who doesn't really understand my issues as a woman, then I may need more than one. Like Rut says, a circle of people to talk to about different things is probabaly the best.

Well, this statement had nothing to do with who our partners are, instead, it talks about mentors. I, being a female, dont really see anything wrong with having a male mentor... but that is just for me. It is sad that some people might 'fall for' their mentor. It probably wasnt even that the guy was good looking... she probably just saw something in him that was missing in herself, and thought it could be sexually transmitted.
So, bottom-line... grow up, get some self-respect, and keep your legs closed. :)

You shoulda told Bill Buckner that about 16 years ago!:D

JR, as Bill Cosby's wife would say. . . "I have had enough [b]of <font size = +3>YOU</font>!!!![b] :p

Chuck

I do not think any of us have that kind of money.
 

The only problem is, Bill Cosby as millions upon millions of dollars. Not quite the same. :p

Peace

Re: I do not think any of us have that kind of money.
 

Huh? Not following you, Rut.

Please accept my deepest apologies,Chuck!!It will never happen again.

However,the following IS a true story:-after that particular World Series game,Bill Buckner was so despondant that he threw himself off of a subway platform outside the stadium,before his team-mates could stop him.Fortunately for all concerned, the train went through his legs!:p

Re: Re: I do not think any of us have that kind of money.
 

I am sorry, I was watching the Cosby show when I was writing this. Bill Buckner probably still has his millions he made during his playing days. That is why she would not leave. ;)

Peace

????
 

Who's Bill Buckner???

Re: ????
 

He's a former major league baseball player,who was recently inducted into the NY Met's Hall of Fame.

Re: Re: ????
 

Man that is cold. :)

Re: Re: Re: I do not think any of us have that kind of money.
 

I think you misunderstood my comment, Jeff. "I have enough of this!!!!" is a line from Bill Cosby's movie "Himself". It's what his wife says right before she goes berserk and starts beating the children. The full quote is something like:

"My wife then announces that the beatings will now begin. . . by saying 'I have had enough of <font size = +3> this </font>!!!' "

Basically I was telling Jurassic Ref that his beating was about to begin :D Apparently the Sox applied the beating today as they whooped the Yanks 7-1. :)

Chuck

Himself.
 

I loved that movie when I was a kid. Showtime used to show that movie all the time. I have seen it probably a 100 times.

I should have know what you were talking about since jump. That is the reason you do one thing at a time. I am watching TV, on the internet and on the phone at the same time.

I need a nap, it has been a long weekend. :D

Peace

Re: Re: Re: Re: I do not think any of us have that kind of money.
 

Thththpbpbpbthpbphtb to you,Mr. Smartypants!!:D

Stay on the topic
 

Just back to this board to learn something.
Was reading this thread on MENTORING and thought
the subject to be important, but then here they
go again .... Jurassic and Rut way to blow the call.
"Keep your mouth shut unless you can improve the silence!"

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: I do not think any of us have that kind of money.
 

Woo-hoo!! I finally got under JR's skin!!!! I win!! LOL

Chuck

grow up!
 

You didn't get under my skin.
You got under your age.
If you act like a child that's how people will perceive you.

Re: Stay on the topic
 

Come on, Barry. It's slow. It's off-season. There's not a lot going on except some AAU and the NBA playoffs. We talked about the mentoring question; and then, like a lot of threads, this one meandered. Neither Rut nor JR was ever disrespectful or obscene. It's light-hearted and meant in good fun. Just my opinion, but I don't mind it.

Chuck

Re: grow up!
 

Uh, Barry. . . did you actually read my post? I was talking to JR (that's Jurassic Ref). I got under JR's skin by bragging about the Red Sox. Lighten up a little. Oh, and welcome back. I guess. :confused:

Chuck

Should Women Officials Seek A Mentor Of The Same Sex?
 

I didn't want to go there, but I am. There are some "straight" women officials who are uncomfortable with women officials who are "gay" this is not my s*#t this is information that a couple of women officials in my area have shared with me. If this is true then this is another issue that some women officials may have to deal with. That may make it difficult for women officials to select a mentor of the same sex. I personally have never considered a women official as a mentor, even though I know there are excellent women officials out there that I can learn alot from. Maybe some of the women who read this post will get honest, and let us know if this issue is widespread or if it's not as bad as it seems to be.

Re: Re: Stay on the topic
 

Yep!

Re: Stay on the topic
 

"Physician,heal thyself!"

Re: Should Women Officials Seek A Mentor Of The Same Sex?
 

Most women athletes have to deal with the issue of lesbian-ism at one time or another. Either they themselves are lesbians, or they are called lesbians, or they have to deal with other women who they must work closely with who are lesbians. I don't see this as a big issue. I have no idea if any of the women in our association are lesbians, and it doesn't matter to me. Just as I don't care about the "sexuality" of any of my male co-workers. It wouldn't be any different to have a lesbian mentor, than to have a male mentor. That person is not someone who I see as "available to me" sexually. If they come on to me -- whether male or female -- I'll have the same response. I would hope most women in this field would be mature enough for this not to be a big issue.

Should Women Officials Seek A Mentor Of The Same Sex
 

Rainmaker,
I have alot of respect for you after your last reply to this topic(not that I didn't have respect for you before) I need forums to bring some light to the subjects at hand. I must admit I would not ask a "gay" male official to mentor myself. I am just not comfortable with that situation, and I am sure that some officials will sound off on my position on this. I am just not allright with some things, and this has nothing to do with another officials sexuality, it has something to do with my choices! Can you imagine if an officials organization has a program for mentors, and a new official is assigned a mentor who he/she
is uncomfortable with because of that officials sexual preference? I say the men with the men, and the women with the women for obvious reasons! Plus mentoring a women official for me as a married man, may not make my wife very happy.

LoveToRef4Ever--

The most important thing you are saying is that you know what will work for you and what won't and you are being responsible for your own situation. It's admirable that you know your own mind about a gay man being your mentor, or a woman being your mentor or mentee. You are not blaming others, just describing your own feelings. This is great, and I would hope that others would respect your boundaries.

I do think, though, that others may not have the same feelings and may react to some of these situations differently than you do. So to extrapolate from your feelings to "the women with the women, and the men with the men" is a pretty big jump. I feel comfortable having a non-sexual relationship with men other than my husband, in or out of basketball. I know how to handle my feelings if they move out of my acceptable limits. My husband feels comfortable with that, too, and trusts our marriage to hold. So neither of us has a problem if I have a male mentor. Other people have to define their own boundaries, and handle their own situations. Why should the few really good women in our association be required to mentor all the rest of us up-and-comers because some folks might be tempted to overstep in a male/female mentoring relationship? What Rockyroad said about getting the best mentor regardless of gender or race, is probably the best rule. With the occasional extra conversation with a certain other person or two who can answer those "minority-specific" questions.

[Edited by rainmaker on Jun 3rd, 2002 at 10:43 AM]

Gotta have fun.
 

If you cannot have fun during this or during officiating, maybe you need to think of something else to do.

Peace

Melanie Davis Article
 

I forgot to mention this. But in the June 2002 issue of Referee Magazine, there is an portion of the Basketball section called "Five Minutes With..." and this month the time is spent with Melanie Davis. She briefly talks about her experiences and might shed some light on mentoring that she receives.

Peace

Should Women Officials Seek A Mentor Of The Same Sex?
 

Rainmaker,
First, when I use the term "the men with the men, and the women with the women." I say that because if the men mentor the women, then the women may not get the opportunity to mentor the women at all! I just think that the women officials should reach out to the "new" women officials and let them know that they are there if they need them for advice. Personally I suggest to the women officials who reach out to me, and the ones that I have reached out to, is you don't have to give me the "label" of a mentor because I share officiating information with you. I believe labels are for "jars", I am just an official who just enjoys sharing information to whomever may wish to use it.
Also, I think the kind of understanding you and your husband has is great mine is a little different. My wife may say she is allright with women officials calling the house and stuff like that, but I know when she is really
not allright with something! So I choose to refrain from getting to close to women officials when it may apear to lead to a problem in my marriage. This is just for me, others may have something to say about this but I don't need the unnecessary drama!

Have you involved your wife in your reffing "world"? My wife had much the same attitude as your wife does (at least based on what you posted)...so I took (and still do) her to some games and to the end-of-the-season banquets or picnics so she could meet and get to know some of the people- esp. some of the women I work with...calmed her down tremendously - even to the point that I was able to mentor a younger female official in our HS association this year, and my wife was ok with that...

ok guys and gals

My thoughts on this have slightly changed. My new partner (the guy who asked me to mentor him) told me he was 29 years old. Tonight i found out, he is really 49 years old, but has the body of a 29 year old, they all said it was a mistake anyone could make, and for me not to feel bad. I learned this at a ball game last night, and discovered this man's hidden agenda. So, now I am a little more open minded. Because I try not to pass judgement on someone until i know them, I will give him a chance tonight. I am calling him, and asking him how old he is, and if he says 29, he's not gonna be getting my help. How do all of you feel about this, i am kinda stuck between a rock and a hard place here. he also told me he was a pastor, which he wasn't...

[Edited by Doug on Jun 5th, 2002 at 06:55 AM]

IMHO, I believe you trust a person until they give you a reason not to. Dishonesty is one of those reasons. Lying about age, while still lying, is at least understandable. There are people who are uncomfortable with getting older. Lying about being a pastor is a whole other issue. While I am looking at this from the outside, I would be careful going forward.

Should Women Officials Seek A Mentor Of The Same Sex?
 

rockyroad,
My wife comes to the various banquets that my organizations host every year, she knows most of my fellow officials and there wifes. She is "just not allright with somethings." In the begining when women officials may call me on the phone she will not say anything, but after a couple of months goes by she makes little comments that let's me know how she really feels. This is not a big deal for me because I know my "motives,"also I let these officials know that I am married. I beleive that I have gained more respect from the women officials who are also married because they want to be respected too by other women!