You make the call
 

This play occurred in a recent game. A player committed a foul in the first quarter. When the foul was reported the official scorer told the referee that the player had a different number recorded in the official scorebook. When the coach of the offended team was notified he was upset because he said he gave his book to the official scorer. The official scorer said he got the numbers of the players from a program provided. A team technical was assessed the team for having to change a number in the book to the number the player was actually wearing.
Even though the coach was adamant about providing the scorer with their scorebook the technical stood. Even though it was a mistake by the official scorer, it is still the coach's responsibility to make sure the numbers are recorded correctly.
Rule 10-2 says the violation will be called when it occurs. Was the call correct in this case?

gabbref, we should combine our posts!

It is the coach's responsibility to provide the scorer with an accurate roster with players and numbers. It's not his responsibility to make sure the scorer records them properly.

No, the call was not correct.

Rule 10-2 states the technical is called when the violation occurs. There was a play in the case book or Referee magazine or someplace with this situation and the explanation was that regardless of how the names and numbers got in the official scorebook the coach still has to make sure all is correct. Where does it say it is not the coach's responsibility to mae sure the scorer records them properly. I tab my rule book and case book on some situations and would like to on this one.

Thanks

Can you find the situation and transcribe it here? I think that'd be a very interesting one for all to see.

More importantly, where does it say it is the coach's responsibility? All I can find is the following:

NFHS Rule 3-2-1:
At least 10 minutes prior to the scheduled start time, each team shall supply the official scorer with the name and number of each team member and designate the five starting players. Failure to comply results in a technical foul.

I, too, was always under the assumption that it was the head coach's responsibility to make sure the players are correct in the book, but now I'm not so sure. It looks like they've fulfilled their responsibility once they tell the scorer who is on the roster tonight, and who is starting. The rule book says nothing about verification.

our chapter has us take the official book to each hc at the 10 minute mark in pregame and have them check it and sign their page. if something like this occurred, it would be a "t".

10-2 addresses substitutes entering the game. If you've got a rule or case play that states the coach must make sure the score book is correct, please post it.

My rule book says the coach is required to furnish the scorer with a roster with all player names and numbers. (10-1-1) He has now asked the scorer to add these names to the score book, prior to the 10 minute mark, as prescribed by rule. There's nothing that says he is required to make sure the scorer does his/her job.

To add to what Tony said, in the OP, the scorer ADMITS that he/she did not use the book the coach provided, but used some other roster from a program or something. No way this is a T on the coach.

I like what your chapter has their officials do. Makes sense and is no trouble. Will apply in the future.

I disagree, there is no rules basis for it.

Simple Solution, "Coach let me see that book or list."
if the number do not match then no T if they do match so coach you gave us the wrong info. I have to give you the "T".

I am not going to penalize the team if the offical scorer can not read. I do not think any assignor or conference commissioner would argue with that interpretation.

I hear the word "coach" being tossed around quite a bit during this discussion. Just for clarity sake:

There is no requirement that the head coach specifically be the person to turn in the roster. The rule only states that the "team" is required to do it.

More importantly, it is not a "coach T" if the submitted roster is late or wrong. It is only a team technical. It does not count against the coach's total toward ejection. The coach does not get seatbelted for this.

try this
 

"Coach, would you like to double check the official book for starters and player numbers?"

Its on them if they choose not to.

There's no rule requirement for them to do so. You don't have rule backing to hold it against them later. They have done what the rule book said they needed to; you can't add extra responsibilities.

I merely suggested an alternative.

When it comes to issues that are not specifically covered in the rules, the R makes the final determination. Sometimes there is no rule backing.

A few years ago, someone went to a TV monitor to get a play right. Was it allowable by the rules? NO. Did they get the play right? YES. That is the job.

In regard to the topic at hand: It is their job to make sure the line up is correct, all that little statement did was remind them. If there is a problem with the line up, it is the coach that reaps the consequences. You do know that it is possible that the team make up is not the same game to game? It is called preventative officiating.

By your reasoning, if it is incorrect it is not on them because they did what they were supposed to.

I don't mind the preventative officiating. That's not what's objectionable. What I object to is the idea that if you have the coach look at the official book and sign it that you can now call a team technical if he misses a scorer's transcription error. When you say, "It's on them if they choose not to," I take it you'd call the T here, when you have no rule to back that up.

You can't use 2-3, because the issue is addressed in the rules.


Exactly. If the team provides the lineup to the scorer, and the scorer either uses another source or makes a transcription error; it's not on the team/coach. Why are we looking for a reason to call a T here?

The problem with this statement is that this is covered in the rules.

Video monitor review is forbidden in NFHS games. I have no idea when/where/how/why this happened, but it is definitely outside the rules, and that is NOT the job.

It is not their job to make sure the lineup in the official book is correct. It is only their job to make sure the lineup they submit is correct.

This isn't a difficult issue at all. Why make it more complicated than it needs to be - especially when doing what you have suggested is beyond the scope of the rules.

It looks like we are actually on the same page. The posted message referring to a local rule is something they use, and may be fine with their rules interpreter. If you want the "big" games in that association, then, "When in Rome...."

I only say Coach because he is the one asking me to check the mistake in the original book. I am askig for his proof offer.

Agreed, and if I were going to do some preventative officiating and ask someone to check the book I'd find an assistant to do that.
However since we are not checking the book until 10 min NCAA & FED. you better ask before that or it is already too late to make changes without penalty so think about that very carefully, you could be inviting trouble.

Try this on for size, if the coach provides the correct lineup to the scorer, the scorer uses a different source and gets it wrong, then we need to make a change mid-game; you going to call the T?

Didn't you basically just summarize the OP? I think this is what we've been discussing the whole time...

I see that now. I guess the follow up point is if you won't call this T (and I wouldn't), you can't call the T if the same scorer's error is corrected within 10:00 of game time.

Saw this situation in a JUCO game a couple of years ago, a typed line up card was supplied -one number was mis copied in the book by scorer, the line up card was attached to the back page of the book with a calm explaination and a notation in the book as to exactly what happened, there was no issue.

the responsibility of the team ends once the line up is presented, any error at that point, is the responsibility of the table crew can you punnish the team for an error by the table crew?

What do you do if the team turns in the roster with 10:05 on the clock? Does the coach have to sign even though the scorer had no time to copy anything into the book?

Study Guide ...
 

Penalized when they occur, after ten minute time limit. The infraction occurs when the scorer is advised to add to or change the scorebook. The foul must be charged when it occurs and enforced when the ball next becomes live. Once the ball has become live, it is too late to penalize. A maximum of one technical foul per team regardless of the number of infractions for 2a, 3a, 3b, 3c, 4a:
a) A team shall not add a name to the team member list after the ten minute time limit. Team technical foul. When such a player legally enters the court, the player’s name, and number, must be entered into the scorebook.

Book(s) Ready ???
 

The rule says supply, not copy into the book. I'm not aware of any time limit regarding having the book(s) ready.

Penalized when it occurs, pregame, after ten minute time limit. A maximum of one technical foul for both requirements,1a, and 1b:
a) A team shall not fail to supply the scorer with the name, and number, of each team member who may participate at least ten minutes before the scheduled starting time. Team technical foul.
b) A team shall not fail to designate the five starting players at least ten minutes before the scheduled starting time. Team technical foul.

Okay, now I'm starting to have some issues with this, as it seems there is some discrepancy between the rules.
On the one hand, the coach only needs to supply the scorer by the 10:00 mark of pregame. On the other hand, any changes to the book after that point result in a technical foul. Artical 10-2 seems completely separate from 10-1, so....

I think it's easier to consider the typographical error to be a scorer's mistake, which can be corrected at any point until the final score is approved.

There, I feel better.