5 Second Violation??
 

20 seconds left in 1st quarter, A1 is dribbling in frontcourt. Coach of A tells her "one shot". She dribbles out top by the timeline still in the frontcourt and picks up her dribble. She is not closely guarded. I get her for a 5 second violation as she is holding the ball, is this the correct call?

If she's not closely guarded then no, you kicked it.

I had a playoff game where one team, who knew they'd get killed if they played 32 minutes of basketball, actually held the ball for 7 minutes of a quarter. No passes, just held the ball after the half court throw in. Perfectly legal.

She is not closely guarded...so why did you call her for a 5-second closely guarded violation?

If she was not closely guarded, what was the 5 second violation for?

Nope, you kicked it!

I respectfully disagree. Wouldn't this fall under the "actionless contest" rule?

It's hard to read sarcasm /humor in some of the posts, but I'll assume that is what you meant.

There once was a rule that forced one team to create the action. I don't remember it completely, but I believe the team behind in the score had to force the action.

I didn't mean any sarcasm. What part seemed sarcastic? I was just trying to point out a legit rule that contrasted with what a previous post-er witnessed...

How can you have a 5 second closely guarded violation when you stated the player was not closely guarded? A long while back, if I remember correctly, the offense had to break the 28 foot line in the front court...but that was changed long ago. If the dribbler is not closely guarded (within 6 feet) by the defender, then you have nothing.

ma ref,
They got rid of that rule about 20 years ago.

I had a similar playoff experience with a team holding the ball for almost two entire quarters.

Really? NFHS rule 10-1-5:

A team shall not:
"...Allow the game to develop into an actionless contest. This includes the following and similar acts:"

Read the rest of the rule.....your point is misguided and your interpretation is off.....

But the specific "lack of action" rule was dropped.

10-1-5 has a different meaning than you seem to think.

I whistled her for 5 seconds after picking her dribble up. so it is legal for her to stand there, even though she used up her dribble, for however long until she is closely guarded? obviously when the defense comes out, she can only pass or shoot.

If she is closely guarded while she is holding the ball, she 5 second to get rid of the ball. If she is not closely guarded, she can stand there all day. This is a very simple rule in my opinion.

Go easy. He seems new and with not much training.

He's learning.

You must have gotten enough sleep last night. :cool:

My bad, had a long night last night!!!!!

Correct.

The rule is not intended for anything close to holding the ball out by the division line while the defense plays a zone defense inside the three-point arc.

Happens a couple of times a year when, for whatever reason, both teams are "happy" with the current score + / - one last shot by the offense at the end of a period.

Agreed, if the clock is running, it's not an "actionless contest" in my book.

That is correct.

Oh I see.

We're morons for using the word baseline but we should go easy on this guy.

Riiiiiight. :D

"Play Ball" ...
 

Correct, back in the early eighties.

Four/Four/Four: Legal ...
 

The closely guarded rule is in effect in frontcourt only, when a defender is within six feet of the ball handler. Up to three separate five-second counts may occur on the same ball handler, holding, dribbling, and holding. The count continues even if defenders switch. The five-second count ends when a dribbler gets his or her head and shoulders ahead of the defender.

Longest I have ever seen the ball held is 7:45. Box score that quarter was 2-0.

I've now got you beat - local holiday HS boy's tournament. One team felt the were going to be out-matched, so they got the opening tip and held the ball. Literally. Until they accidentally threw it away with only a minute or so left in the quarter. Still managed to hold the other team scoreless: score at halftime was 0-0. Final was 17-6. Yes, HS boy's varsity game.

How long was the game? 45 min-1 hour?

Ok, who is causing this to be an actionless contest - the O holding the ball or the D not playing any D? Hmmmmmmmmmmm

There was a good discussion of this in another thread recently:
Backcourt Question

Personally, I'd warn both teams. Obviously the offense is doing nothing. But all the defense needs to do is get 1 player in a guarding position within 6 feet of the player with the ball to force a 5 sec closely guarded count.

IMHO, by doing nothing both teams are making a farce of the game. If this is a legal play, then what is the point of having a shot clock, if not to force the offense to do something, and prevent a situation exactly like this? Ditto with the 10 sec backcourt count...might as well get rid of both if leagues don't mind situations like this.

Again, under what authority? You are putting a team at a distinct disadvantage by not allowing them to execute a perfectly legal strategy.

Since we seem to be discussing NFHS rules here, there is not point, because there is no shot clock. If you work in a state that has a shot clock, or you want to discuss NCAA or NBA rules, then this discussion is moot.

Bottom line - the game is not actionless, nor is it a farce, if the offense holds the ball near mid-court and the defense chooses not to force the action by closely guarding.

I wouldn't warn the teams. But after the first quarter, I might go to the coaches and ask if they'd rather just shorten the quarters. Why let the clock run for 8 minutes, when both teams are happy to play only the last minute of each quarter? Why not just play 2 minute quarters for the 2nd, 3rd and 4th quarters? This is perfectly within the rules and it would eliminate the tedium.

I'm wondering, What was the coach's reaction? What was your partner's reaction? What sort of post-game did you and your partner have? You obviously have begun to question your call, since you posted it here for clarification.

This is a good suggestion, which I was not aware we had the power to do. I just searched for and found the rule that you mentioned which allows that. Definitely better than having us twiddle our thumbs for the better part of 32 minutes. But it still doesn't get to the root of the problem. Even if you shorten the length of each quarter to 2 minutes, what is to prevent the teams from continuing to stand there and do nothing? You could have an infinite number of overtime periods, and at what point do you call it a night and declare the game over and go home?

M&M - just curious, what were the players/fans reaction to all of this? Any fans get upset? Yell? Coaches coaching? Did the players move at all or just stand in one spot with their hands on their hips? Inquiring minds (ok, mine anyhow) want to know?

Rest assurred that with 10 seconds to go in the game or 1st OT someone will drive the ball to the basket and attempt to score.

Don't know, because I wasn't there, but it was on the local news. I know some of the officials that work in that tournament, so I'll try to find out any additional tidbits.

I'll go back to this; if the clock is moving, there's action.

If your state doesn't have a shot clock; this is perfectly legal. If your state does have a shot clock, it's easy to deal with.

Yawn......

I think it's fairly safe to assume that no league WANTS play like this. But it doesn't happen often enough to warrant addressing it with a major rules change.

Where's Nevada and what have you done with him?:confused:

My New Year's resolution is to try to be nicer.

I've noticed that I put things so matter-of-factly and bluntly that it tends to elicit a negative reaction from people when I was really just trying to give them an answer as quickly and succintly as possible. I'm a very honest and direct person. That has both its positives and negatives.
Anyway, I'm going to attempt to soften my approach. We'll see how it goes. It can't hurt to try. :)

Of course, this effort tends to get tossed aside when someone makes a snide remark or insulting comment about me. That's when my inner Jurassic Referee comes out. :eek:

I Know I'll Keep Writing Year Of The Rat On My Checks ...
 

Which New Year? I want to mark it on my calendar:

January 1, 2009? Or, Chinese New Year, January 26, 4707, the year of the Ox, or The Islamic New Year, the first day of Muharram, December 29, 1430 AH.

Don't flatter yourself.:D

With only a few days left in 2008, I dunno if anyone will top that one this year. :p

It was dropped sometime after 1991-1992 because the rule still existed in 1990-1991 but was gone after 1994 because I scored an AAU game under NFHS rules where a team sat at half court for 5 minutes doing nothing before the coach decided to have them move the ball around. I even remember thinking { Doesn't someone have to force action? }

Seems to be some disagreement on when the rule was removed.

I remember playing a game in the 90-91 season in which the lack of action rule should have been enforced if it was in effect. It was not enforced. I did not remember that rule during the discussion in the thread I linked to here.