Wow, Did I just see that!

[Scratch85]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I would question why you are calling a foul on the first one. There is always going to be some contact on a blocked shot. If it was clean first, let the other contact go. If the body contact took place first, then you can have a legitimate foul.

Just my take.

Peace

My take is: if the defender had LGP the body contact is ignored. If they did not have LGP or were moving forward toward an airborne shooter, I would call a foul.

[JRutledge]

[QUOTE=Ch1town;559740]I concur JRut, let me re-word that so I don't sound like a complete moron

Originally Posted by Ch1town

1. Clean block up top with simultaneous body contact that is say, 60/40 or 55/45, should that be reported as a "push" or "block" accompanied by the verbal "BODY" to sell the call?

I would still make the case that the body contact would have to come first to have a foul. Then again that is my experience and how it is expected to be called. All contact is not a foul and you are not going to have blocks without some expected contact. I would not call a PC foul on a shooter if they bounced off a defender and the defender maintained their basic position.

Originally Posted by Ch1town

Now, any answers to the 2 previous questions would be greatly appreciated. I just want to get it right...

I will admit I did not understand the second question. What do you mean by "Give them the finger and come back and explain?" I do not think I am going to explain much directly to kids in the first place. Or at the very least I am not going out of my way to explain something. If they ask me in a quite and respectful way, then I might go for that.

Peace

Come on JRut, I completely understand! Why must it be sooooooo difficult to get this answer? You act as if you haven't read the post by referee99...
I saw a couple things in HIS post that raised questions.

1. Defender FOULS the shooter (with the body) prior to the block... Do YOU report the foul as a block or push is all that I am trying learn from you or any other knowledgable official.

referee99 second statement that caught my eye was how he explained to the player ON HIS WAY TO THE TABLE by "tapping his (own) chest" as if to say clean block but you got him with the body".

2. Should we report before communicating with players & coaches or is it acceptable to clarify in route to the table??

Gracias'

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Ch1town

Come on JRut, I completely understand! Why must it be sooooooo difficult to get this answer? You act as if you haven't read the post by referee99...
I saw a couple things in HIS post that raised questions.

1. Defender FOULS the shooter (with the body) prior to the block... Do YOU report the foul as a block or push is all that I am trying learn from you or any other knowledgable official.

referee99 second statement that caught my eye was how he explained to the player ON HIS WAY TO THE TABLE by "tapping his (own) chest" as if to say clean block but you got him with the body".

2. Should we report before communicating with players & coaches or is it acceptable to clarify in route to the table??

Gracias'

If you disagree with a foul being called, that is fine. I just do not feel you should call a foul "just because" there was some body contact when players go to the basket. And if you want to learn, then realize that there are officials that will not call this a foul and feel it should not be called a foul. It was the way I was taught a long time ago and the way I have been taught as I have gone to camps and trainings at higher levels. And in my experience I see both good and bad teams that play above or near the rim. If you are calling this a foul every time, then you will be shooting FTs from the moment the ball is tipped off. And I do not know how you could be that technical in any girl's game because every shot involves contact near the basket. The incidental contact rule did not just leave the rulebook either.

Secondly, I am still trying to understand why you feel the need to explain a call you made to a player or coach for that matter before you report to the table.

I tell the table (with a loud enough voice) what was done along with the correct signal. So if I have a push, I say which hand and how they pushed them (e.g. "Push with the right arm in the back") I have been doing this in some form for a season and a half and I cannot recall many coaches complaining what I called even if at first they were adamant about what they thought the call should be.

Peace

[Mark Padgett]

Originally Posted by Ch1town

Do YOU report the foul as a block or push is all that I am trying learn from you or any other knowledgable official.'

Although I'm not in that category, I'll try to answer this anyway. If the shooter was displaced by the defender, it's a push. If the shooter's forward (or sideways, or backwards) motion was stopped by the defender (who did not have LGP), it's a block.

[referee99]

Originally Posted by Mark Padgett

Now that I think about it, a lot of my problems started after I used the "hit to the head" signal about 20 times in one game.

forearm trouble after one game with lots of emphatic illegal use of hands calls.

Originally Posted by Mark Padgett

Although I'm not in that category, I'll try to answer this anyway. If the shooter was displaced by the defender, it's a push. If the shooter's forward (or sideways, or backwards) motion was stopped by the defender (who did not have LGP), it's a block.

JH%&*$#C!!! Thank you Mark, that is all I wanted to know.
I know what a freakin foul is, I just had questions about another posters post.

[referee99]

Originally Posted by Mark Padgett

Although I'm not in that category, I'll try to answer this anyway. If the shooter was displaced by the defender, it's a push. If the shooter's forward (or sideways, or backwards) motion was stopped by the defender (who did not have LGP), it's a block.

A1 drives towards low block...and pulls up. B2 comes from the FT line, contact knocks A1 towards the end line. B2 swats ball up top. Illegal contact occurred. Period. I had a push. Displacement, not impedance.

B2 gives me his best pleading, "I got all ball" face. I tell him "Body" and tap my chest.

If I had the call as trail and was now administering FTs I would certainly consider talking to a player about the illegal contact. As lead moving to new trail I would not return to the 'scene of the crime' to have any such discussion. Move on.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Ch1town

JH%&*$#C!!! Thank you Mark, that is all I wanted to know.
I know what a freakin foul is, I just had questions about another posters post.

If you do not know what the signal is (and this is hard to understand), how are you so sure that you know what a foul is? The foul is whatever you want it to be based on the action. There is no "it must be this way or else" foul signal.

Peace

[Y2Koach]

Mechanics and communication can definitely make a difference. I was scouting a game the other night and team A's best player A3 had 2 player control fouls and an "over the back" pushing foul on a rebound in the first half. Being a stickler for mechanics and a fan of officiating.com (!), i noticed immediately that the officials were very sloppy with their mechanics and communication with the table. Lo and behold, at the beginning of the second half, coach B is telling his guys to "attack A3, he's got 3 fouls". On a B3 drive to the basket, A3 hacks B3 on the arm and a foul is called. When coach A asks the home (B) scorekeeper if A3 has 4, scorekeeper responds "thats his first foul coach". B3 goes ape $h!t, there's a 10 minute delay in the game trying to sort everything out. The official is condescendingly admonishing the young lady keeping the book. I guess the young lady had enough of the attitude from the official and says "you never said foul, you just punched and said a number, how am i supposed to know those are fouls? Aren't you supposed to come close to the table and tell me it's a foul?" They finally sorted it out, but it was just a mess that probably could have been avoided.

Originally Posted by JRutledge

If you do not know what the signal is (and this is hard to understand), how are you so sure that you know what a foul is? The foul is whatever you want it to be based on the action. There is no "it must be this way or else" foul signal.

Excellent, but you really could've said THAT 16 posts & a whole page ago

Man it's almost been a year since we got down like this, but here we go again. And this time I just asked a question... oh wait a minute, that's what I did before too

This is what raised my concerns:

Originally Posted by referee99

Also, at the spot of the foul, I'm using prescribed mechanics,
but may answer question from player with a gesture. Had a kid make a
clean block up top, but contact shooter with his chest.
Called a push at the spot, and
answered kids question with a tap to the chest (mine)
as I go to report.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Ch1town

Excellent, but you really could've said THAT 16 posts & a whole page ago

Man it's almost been a year since we got down like this, but here we go again. And this time I just asked a question... oh wait a minute, that's what I did before too

This is what raised my concerns:

And you could have known that already, but then again this is another one of your huffy and puffy moments, which you tend to get when someone does not adhere to your demands.

You are supposed to be a veteran and you do not know what signal to give on a foul? Even if you do not know what signal to give, no one really cares. The only people that will likely care is the coach and even then they will complain no matter what you do if they do not respect you or if they feel you are not experienced. It is clear by reading many threads here recently, if you have been around a long time you can signal damn (even the wrong signals) near anything and they will still get games and still work where they want to. Is it that hard to know this already?

Peace

3rd year certified is NOT a vet in these parts... I'm in CO not SoCal

{This is where I get off} you sir may have the last word, life is too short.

Anybody with half-way decent reading/writing skills can see where the problem lies.

[fullor30]

Originally Posted by chrs_schuster

To start, I was doing the Jv boys game. I am in my 5th year, P is his 4th. My P and I go to watch V crew. 3 older gentlemen, very experienced. Midway through the 2Q, team B goes up for rebound gets fouled by team A. The C calls a foul goes to report and says A3 "over the back" and does a diving motion/bunny hop. Table asks what was the call?...he precedes to say and do the motion 2 more times. My P and I look at each other like, "what did he say and just do!" To say the least... My P and I were a little shocked that a V ref would use that term and motion knowing there is no such call! I went in at halftime to grab my stuff and didnt have the STONES to ask him about his call. Would any of you say anything or just let it go.....

All you can do is comment about it which you have right here. My theory is I'm no better than anyone else, but just as good. I have no right to question another official that I'm watching. It's his game not mine. That's what assignors are for.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by grunewar

...just not comfortable using mechanics that aren't in the book. JMO

And that's the key...if you are comfortable with it. I use unapproved signals from time-to-time. I have a supervisor who tells us he likes to see some personality on the floor.

Once you have a established that you get plays right, know the rules, can communicate with coaches, and can handle situations on the court your mechanics get less scrutinized. Just ask Ed Hightower.

Originally Posted by Ch1town

I concur JRut, let me re-word that so I don't sound like a complete moron

1. Clean block up top with simultaneous body contact that is say, 60/40 or 55/45, should that be reported as a "push" or "block" accompanied by the verbal "BODY" to sell the call?
...

Having to sell a call is often a indication that we may have got it wrong. In this case I would have a push mechanic on the spot and at the table. I might explain (not sell) if the coach asked.