End of game situation offensive foul scenario with a made bucket at the buzzer
 

This was talked about the other night while were on our way to a game. It's a theoretical situation, but I'd be interested in hearing peoples thoughts.

Let's say tie ball game, last second shot. Picture this sequence of events, in this order. A1 jumps in the air, releases a try, horn sounds, bucket goes in. A1 then crashes into B1 who has obtained legal guarding position, but the crash happens AFTER the horn.

In "Scenario A" the crash happens before A1 has returned to the floor, but again the crash is after the horn, but the shot went and was released before the buzzer.

In "Scenario B" the same situation, except this time A1 has returned one foot to the ground before crashing into B1.

I'd be interested in hearing what people would do in each scenario, and if your answer is based on NFHS or NCAA. I've got my answers, but I'll save them for now.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the ball is dead once the ball goes through the basket.

With the ball dead and time expired, the game is over. Any contact after the fact is ignored.

OK, lets say the crash happend before the ball goes through the hoop. Full court shot from the back court.

Well, the ball is still live if it hasn't gone through the hoop, so you'd have a player control foul. Wave off the basket, report the foul and go to overtime.

If you trick the case up sufficiently, it will be a PC foul, no basket, time expired, get ready for OT.

is it general consensus then that once the ball is through the hoop and the buzzer has sounded, the contact afterwards is ignored even if the A1 hasn't returned to the ground before the crash?

what if we change it up and say that B1 commits the foul after the buzzer and before the airborn shooter returns to the ground. you're going to ignore that contact as well then?

The only way this basket might count is if the ball went through and the horn sounded prior to the contact.
However, the principals to consider are:
1. Although the ball becomes dead when a basket is made, a personal foul by the airborne shooter can still be called as an exception.
2. Although the ball typically becomes dead when the horn sounds, it remains live if the horn blows while a shot is in the air.

Either way, I’m waving off the shot due to the PC. Unless I can be convinced the contact should be ignored. I'll have to review the rules more carefully, though.

Rule reference?

Ordinarily yes,however....
 

Situation A

A foul on or by an airborne shooter can not be ignored even if the ball is dead. The period doesn't end when the horn sounds while a try is in the air. The period ends when the try ends. Now if the try ended after the horn but before the shooter returned to the floor, I still say its a PC foul. We protect the shooter until they return, but that protection comes with a price. Would we ignore a foul on the shooter after the ball went in and after the horn? Maybe if it didn't effect the outcome of the game. So by that logic we can't ignore a foul by an airborne shooter even if the horn had sounded. PC foul; wipe off the basket and begin the over time period.

Situation B

Since the shooter returned to the floor before contact, they are no longer an airborne shooter. The ball was dead at the moment the try was successful. I'd ignore the contact foul unless it was too sever to ignore. Came over!

I'll provide it when I can if someone doesn't beat me to it.

I believe it is in the definitions
 

I don't have my rule book with me, but I believe it is in the definitions defining fouls. A personal foul is a live ball contact foul or a foul on or by an airborne shooter. The implication is that a foul on/by an airborne shooter is still a personal foul even if the ball is dead. Check out 4.19.

These were my answers, but like I said I wanted to hear what others had to say first.

I agree with rwest on this.

Ya, 4-19-1:

A personal foul also includes contact by or on an airborne shooter while the ball is dead.

Here's an online rule book:

Middle Tennessee Basketball Officials Association

Me, too.

Sure ???
 

How about intentional, or flagrant contact?

Good call. I meant common foul. Besides, I was wrong anyway!!! :D

Lotta good its doing them.....
 

Seems as though some of the folks need to visit their online rules resource a little more often.

Take a look at some of the 'you make the call' poll results posted on their site...Not so sure I would want this info publicly available

This question was posted 1/15/2008

Results for "A1 has the ball in the backcourt and throws a pass into the front court. The ball strikes the official who is in bounds in the front court and the ball rolls into the backcourt and is first touched by A1."
Choice Votes %
Back court violation 318 50.1%
No violation - count continues 228 35.9%
No violation - count restarts 69 10.8%
Traveling 19 2.9%
Total 634 100%



Same question posted 9/15/2004

Results for "Team A is in backcourt - passes ball - hits Referee in frontcourt inbounds - goes directly into backcourt - A1 catches the ball."
Created 21:17 09/15/2004
Choice Votes %
Backcourt Violation 75 50.3%
OK. No Break in Ten Second Count. 47 31.5%
OK. Ten Second Count Starts Over. 19 12.7%
OK. But A1 Cannot Dribble. 8 5.3%
Total 149 100%


But at least they are consistent with 50% getting correct answer in both instances

more 'interesting' results can be found at this link...
Middle Tennessee Basketball Officials Association

Since the OP asked

NCAA - count the bucket, Team A wins

Free Or Cheap ???
 

I'm still looking for alternative free online rulebook to the one above. Or, what's the cheapest way to get an online rulebook and casebook if I end up having to pay for it? NFHS? How much? EOfficials.com?

NFHS
A. PC foul. Doesn't matter that the ball is dead. The foul is still penalized and as part of that penalty the basket does not count. Get ready for OT.

B. If the ball has become dead prior to the contact because the try ended, then the foul is ignored unless the contact is intentional or flagrant. If the ball was still live because the try was not yet finished, then the foul is to be penalized, but it is NOT a PC foul and the goal counts. You could go to the other end and award bonus FTs with no time on the clock.

NCAAW = same as NFHS

NCAAM
A. This is not a PC foul. Therefore, the goal counts.
I'll research how to handle the contact.

B. Same as NFHS

wouldnt that be a pc and the ball is just waved off, no matter if it goes in or not...its still a pc

would you not just count the bucket and head for the lockers? obviously you would have a foul on A1, but since the contact happened after the release, you count the bucket and you can't shoot any free throws because of the fact it is a team control foul, so that's the ballgame. you don't ignore the contact, but the contact in this situation becomes irrelevant as no free throws can come of it.

There's TC after a try has been released? Alert Ed Bilik because the rule book needs to be changed to reflect this "new interp."

It's not a PC or TC foul, sir. :( The ball was released on a try for goal ending both player and team control.

I'm not sure that the NCAAM rules contain a provision similar to the NFHS rules which provides for penalizing a foul BY an airborne shooter while the ball is dead. I believe so, but since I'm not sure, I said that I would research it rather than post something that turns out to be incorrect, which is what you have just done. :eek:

OK, excuse me as I used the wrong terminology when I said TC. But the fact remains that in NCAAM you can count the bucket if the try is released before the crash happens, have a foul on A1 for fouling B1 who had legal position, and give the ball to B1. I called that a TC foul, which you are correct it is not. I'm not sure what 'name' you'd give to that type of foul, my apologies.

You know, I'm here trying to provide my input on discussion to a legitimate question so that I can learn and have some knowledge in case such a situation arises in the future. You, sir, are being less than constructive in pointing out that what I posted wasn't correct. The point of this forum is to expand our knowledge, not to act better than thou... What do I gain in coming here and trying to contribute to the discussion if you're going to be such a prick when you point out the fairly innocent mistake in conversation? I may have a low post count, but I've lurked here for years and this isn't the first time this has been pointed out to you. Yes, you have a great knowledge of the written rules, congratulations. Try to be a little more humble about it.

If it's not a TC or PC foul, it would be a common foul. We're still waiting on Nevada's research about this call.

These distinctions matter to calling the game correctly. Nevada is zealous about respecting the rules and pointing out sloppiness, but it's up to you whether you take that personally.

And, he did call you "sir". ;)

I'm not going to defend his post, but Nevada is right that it matters what you call this. It's not just semantics, in that since you thought it was a TC foul, you thought free throws would not be attempted. That's the important distinction with a TC foul.

I did call it the wrong thing. I never meant to imply that free throws would be shot. I'm not sure without looking, but I think I even said somehwere that free throws would not be shot. Tough to convey over written word, but I've understood from the get-go that in a shot release followed by a crash situation that you can count the bucket (NCAAM) but have a foul on A and give ball to B. What exactly do you call that type of foul? We've established it's not a PC or TC. :)

That's the point. Free throws would be shot (assuming a bonus scenario) since it's not a TC or PC. It's a common foul.