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-   -   What would you have done? (https://forum.officiating.com/basketball/50271-what-would-you-have-done.html)

Ch1town Wed Dec 10, 2008 01:49pm
What would you have done?
 
Had a boys varsity game last night at a youth detention center. There was only 1 clock, no arrow at the table & an incompetent table crew (prisoners) who started/stopped the clock whenever they could remember.

So 2:31 left in the 4th quarter, home team down by 8… they inbound the ball in their b/c (I’m new L in 2 person game facing the lone clock) then the baseball pass to the big guy right in front of me. As the baseball pass is coming to me I sneak-a-peak & notice that the clock is still at 2:31 :eek: I didn’t want to kill their opportunity to score. I hoped the clock would miraculously start (once again) as the fans/coaches of the visiting team were singing the theme song of the night “start the clock”. It didn’t start and there was a quick shot, a miss, an offensive rebound, another shot, miss, rebound & finally a score.
I hit the whistle & got intercepted by the V coach on my way to the table. He was livid, saying “I had to take some time off the clock” and he is protesting if they lose…
I tell him I don’t have definite info to do so (no counts) & that protests are not recognized by the Feds in basketball.

How could I have handled that situation better?

CoachP Wed Dec 10, 2008 01:52pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ch1town (Post 557065)
Had a boys varsity game last night at a youth detention center. There was only 1 clock, no arrow at the table & an incompetent table crew (prisoners) who started/stopped the clock whenever they could remember.

So 2:31 left in the 4th quarter, home team down by 8… they inbound the ball in their b/c (I’m new L in 2 person game facing the lone clock) then the baseball pass to the big guy right in front of me. As the baseball pass is coming to me I sneak-a-peak & notice that the clock is still at 2:31 :eek: I didn’t want to kill their opportunity to score. I hoped the clock would miraculously start (once again) as the fans/coaches of the visiting team were singing the theme song of the night “start the clock”. It didn’t start and there was a quick shot, a miss, an offensive rebound, another shot, miss, rebound & finally a score.
I hit the whistle & got intercepted by the V coach on my way to the table. He was livid, saying “I had to take some time off the clock” and he is protesting if they lose…
I tell him I don’t have definite info to do so (no counts) & that protests are not recognized by the Feds in basketball.

How could I have handled that situation better?
I heard an official sing "start the clock" once 2-3 years ago...on the run!

Not sure that's in your mechanics book though......

fullor30 Wed Dec 10, 2008 01:55pm
I think you did the best you could do under the circumstances. You said the clock was not being started/stopped correctly the whole game, now suddenly the coach has a problem.

Since I'm from Illinois, I recommend our fine Governor when he is behind bars to be on the table since he is used to running things.

Adam Wed Dec 10, 2008 02:01pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ch1town (Post 557065)
How could I have handled that situation better?
If you can't stop play, I'd start a count.

I didn't know they had varsity games in jails; even juvies. Wow! Were they playing another detention center, or a high school?

Mark Padgett Wed Dec 10, 2008 02:02pm
I would have told the coach that even thought the clock didn't start, the time still counted toward the kid's terms. :cool:

mick Wed Dec 10, 2008 02:03pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ch1town (Post 557065)
As the baseball pass is coming to me I sneak-a-peak & notice that the clock is still at 2:31

How could I have handled that situation better?
Start a count in your head if you can, but it sounds like you were pretty busy at the time.

refguy Wed Dec 10, 2008 02:07pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ch1town (Post 557065)
Had a boys varsity game last night at a youth detention center. There was only 1 clock, no arrow at the table & an incompetent table crew (prisoners) who started/stopped the clock whenever they could remember.

So 2:31 left in the 4th quarter, home team down by 8… they inbound the ball in their b/c (I’m new L in 2 person game facing the lone clock) then the baseball pass to the big guy right in front of me. As the baseball pass is coming to me I sneak-a-peak & notice that the clock is still at 2:31 :eek: I didn’t want to kill their opportunity to score. I hoped the clock would miraculously start (once again) as the fans/coaches of the visiting team were singing the theme song of the night “start the clock”. It didn’t start and there was a quick shot, a miss, an offensive rebound, another shot, miss, rebound & finally a score.
I hit the whistle & got intercepted by the V coach on my way to the table. He was livid, saying “I had to take some time off the clock” and he is protesting if they lose…
I tell him I don’t have definite info to do so (no counts) & that protests are not recognized by the Feds in basketball.

How could I have handled that situation better?
What do you mean you didn't have definite info?
You just stated that you DEFINITELY saw that the clock was DEFINITELY not started properly. Get together with your partner and decide how much time should be taken off.

Adam Wed Dec 10, 2008 02:08pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by refguy (Post 557077)
What do you mean you didn't have definite info?
You just stated that you DEFINITELY saw that the clock was DEFINITELY not started properly. Get together with your partner and decide how much time should be taken off.
You need more than that, you need to know how much time to take off. Without a count, you don't have that.

Ch1town Wed Dec 10, 2008 02:12pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by CoachP (Post 557066)
I heard an official sing "start the clock" once 2-3 years ago...on the run!

Not sure that's in your mechanics book though......
I was opposite tableside & it was extremely loud in there. Every prisoner attends the game, between them & their parents, the visiting teams fans, the gym is filled to the max & the prisoners sing rehearsed chants/cheers in unison throughout the contest...
That was the best part of working that game!!


Quote:
Originally Posted by fullor30 (Post 557071)
I think you did the best you could do under the circumstances. You said the clock was not being started/stopped correctly the whole game, now suddenly the coach has a problem.

Since we are both from Illinois, I recommend our fine Governor when he is behind bars to be on the table since he is used to running things.
Niiice :D


Quote:
Originally Posted by Snaqwells (Post 557073)
If you can't stop play, I'd start a count.

I didn't know they had varsity games in jails; even juvies. Wow! Were they playing another detention center, or a high school?
Too busy with the 6'5" post players to keep a count too :(
Yes sir they play all sports home & away. They were playing a regular 5A HS team. Beautiful facility with a nicer sound system than most regular HS.

I had a nephew locked down there a few years back.

tjones1 Wed Dec 10, 2008 02:12pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by refguy (Post 557077)
What do you mean you didn't have definite info?
You just stated that you DEFINITELY saw that the clock was DEFINITELY not started properly. Get together with your partner and decide how much time should be taken off.
Which can only be done with definite knowledge (i.e. counts).

Ch1town Wed Dec 10, 2008 02:20pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by refguy (Post 557077)
Get together with your partner and decide how much time should be taken off.
That's what the visiting coach was saying :rolleyes:
Maybe he would've hustled me a couple seasons ago, but 5-10-1 & 2 has taught me otherwise...

Mick - You're right, that post-play was intense. Was hoping my tableside partner would sneak-a-peak & fix on his way to the f/c.

Mark - It was the regular HS coach complaining :D

OHBBREF Wed Dec 10, 2008 03:14pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ch1town (Post 557065)
So 2:31 left in the 4th quarter, home team down by 8… they inbound the ball in their b/c (I’m new L in 2 person game facing the lone clock) then the baseball pass to the big guy right in front of me.
Your partner should have had a count here until the ball is caught in the front court. So you should have had definative knowledge of this time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ch1town (Post 557065)
As the baseball pass is coming to me I sneak-a-peak & notice that the clock is still at 2:31 :eek: I didn’t want to kill their opportunity to score.
Since you knew this was a recurring theme all night you should have been ready to count here (actually during any game), you knew the clock wasn't running.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ch1town (Post 557065)
It didn’t start and there was a quick shot, a miss, an offensive rebound, another shot, miss, rebound & finally a score.
without really thinking about it - you could add one second for each of these actions to the count your partner had for back court.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ch1town (Post 557065)
I hit the whistle & got intercepted by the V coach on my way to the table. He was livid, saying “I had to take some time off the clock” and he is protesting if they lose…
The first thing that is going to happen here is I am putting up a big old stop sign to the coach and telling him that he needs to let me take care of my business first, then I get with my partner and we figure out just how much time expired, we go to the table and arrange for that amount to be taken off the clock. Then we deal with the coach.
If time has come off the clock he goes away and there is no need to talk to him.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ch1town (Post 557065)
I tell him I don’t have definite info to do so (no counts) & that protests are not recognized by the Feds in basketball.
If no time comes off the clock, after talking with my partner I explain why no time is coming of the clock and that there is nothing I can do, but I never even aknowledge the comment about a protest - this does nothing to help the situation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ch1town (Post 557065)
How could I have handled that situation better?
Early on when this was a recurring them you might have suggested to the game management that they explain to the clock operator the importance of their job, and if it persists you are well within you rights to insist on a new clock operator. Like it or not, they are part of your crew and even if they are in detention they still need to do the job because it ultimatly could reflect on your managment of the game.

ronald Wed Dec 10, 2008 03:18pm
Questions and a thought:

1) Did you or another official have some type of discussion with the timer about procedures for starting the clock? Seems from your post that this was an ongoing issue that the officials were not aware of or were aware of it and did not do anything proactive to rectify the clock management.

2) Sounds like a good issue for the vetererns on this board to give thoughtful guidance on how to handle a situation of this nature.

3) Is there anything specific in the rules that allows one to blow the whistle, go to the timer and tell em to start the clock when the ball is now inbounded?

4) If not a specific rule (do not remember one), how about the all encomposing one that allows the referee to make decisions not specifically addressed in the rules?

Thanks

Adam Wed Dec 10, 2008 03:27pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by ronald (Post 557101)
4) If not a specific rule (do not remember one), how about the all encomposing one that allows the referee to make decisions not specifically addressed in the rules?
Can't use that one here, becuase the situation is addressed in the rules.

Ch1town Wed Dec 10, 2008 04:02pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by OHBBREF (Post 557100)
Your partner should have had a count here until the ball is caught in the front court. So you should have had definative knowledge of this time.

It was a catch inbounds & a heave... partner said he had nada

Since you knew this was a recurring theme all night you should have been ready to count here (actually during any game), you knew the clock wasn't running.

I didn't think visual & mental counts could be used one in the same... the mental counts don't show up on tape to support us taking time off the clock

without really thinking about it - you could add one second for each of these actions to the count your partner had for back court.

Dont know about that but I'll check into it, I like the visual counts myself, not making up a count

The first thing that is going to happen here is I am putting up a big old stop sign to the coach and telling him that he needs to let me take care of my business first, then I get with my partner and we figure out just how much time expired, we go to the table and arrange for that amount to be taken off the clock. Then we deal with the coach.
If time has come off the clock he goes away and there is no need to talk to him.

I hear you & we did all that, I said he intercepted me but failed to mention that he fumbled me too...

If no time comes off the clock, after talking with my partner I explain why no time is coming of the clock and that there is nothing I can do, but I never even aknowledge the comment about a protest - this does nothing to help the situation.

That's exactly what I said to coach...

Early on when this was a recurring them you might have suggested to the game management that they explain to the clock operator the importance of their job, and if it persists you are well within you rights to insist on a new clock operator.

Did that... so I should've traded in one problem child for another? I figured he was the best they had to offer...

Like it or not, they are part of your crew and even if they are in detention they still need to do the job because it ultimatly could reflect on your managment of the game.
Concur, that was the first time I experienced the saying "you're only as good as your table crew".
Thanks for the advice!


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