T or no T! what do you think?
 

Sitch: Boys V game about 10 seconds left in 4th, score all knotted up. I'm trail administering to Team A at midcourt after timeout. Player A2 inbounds to A1 he dribbles a little then drives the lane. Blows the bunny! Team B rebounds with 2 seconds left, calls timeout. Drops ball and runs to bench. Here is the question. Player A1 grabs ball and slams it about 10 feet in air! Frustration? or pissed about no foul call?..not sure. I almost T but think to myself, do I want to possibly end game on T! Both teams are not going to state(last year by the way)So I swallow whistle! I go over to him tell him not to do that again. Go to overtime and team A wins. I talked to a bunch a fellow officials some say Automatic T, some say good no call! What say you?

Go to the post Automatic T on p. 4 of this forum. Lots of disucssion on similar play.

Personally, I'd handle it the same way you did in either the first or fourth quarter; don't worry about ending the game on the T or not. This is one of those times you either talk to him, or have his captain do it, or his coach.

Since you weren't sure who it was directed at I think a no-call is best. Now, if he's glaring at you as he does it, or he does it after you ask him for the ball, or he's done it earlier and you've talked to him; whack-a-mole time.

Not automatic, though, in my book.

See "National Championship game" sitch very close to yours with a no call.

Whack.

Doesn't matter why he did it.

You don't ajudge the why. You only ajudge the action.

I don't think I could overlook this one. The action itself is bad enough, but it this particular situation apparently the player was not already holding the ball.


So it seems that A1 picked the ball up just for the purpose of slamming it on the floor. I think this is over the line. An orchestrated display, in my opinion, is that much worse than one that is totally spontaneous.

JAR brings up an interesting point that puts another layer of complexity on this situation making it somewhat different from others we have discussed.

This is an overt act - to apparently go get the ball for the purpose of slamming it down in disgust/frustration, as opposed to a spontaneous reaction.

Each case must be judged on its own merit - and, right or wrong, you chose not to "T" in this case.

Side comment - First "T" I ever gave was a game I was forced into action for my son (12). I "T'd" HIM up for slamming the ball almost to the ceiling out of frustration - he knew better. Mom and GRANDPARENTS in the crowd. While the temp was pleasant outside, it was a somewhat cold and icy ride home.....

In the other thread, I provided an example of a case where I would not whack. This is not it: I agree with JAR.

With the emphasis on sportsmanship this has to be a whack, the time and score doesn't matter. I would have a tougher time explaining to a coach the reasons I didn't whack him for his conduct. He went out of his way to go back and get the ball and slam it IMO this is a very easy whack.

This gets a whack from me. When the kid goes out of his way to retrieve the ball and spike it....

This is a also a good point in the season for this kid to learn this lesson. Before he does it in a game that matters more.

Unless the ball does not come back down (Don't you just love Newton's Theory of Gravity?):

WHACK HIM!!

T will be served.

Interesting that someone brought up the NCAA championship game last year. As was well debated, I thought it deserved a T there too, but I was clearly in the minority.

In this case (and at this level), the offending player needs to learn that it's not acceptable behavior. Letting it go teaches him that the officials will let bad (read:stupid) behavior slide if it's a close one. Bad example to set IMHO.

Why "whack him" does one ask? Very simple.

Two years ago in a boys' H.S. jr. varsity game, the game was tied with about ten (10) seconds left in the game. The home team was not very good and should not have been in the game but here it was tied with its opponent. I am L, table side, and Team H has the ball. H1 puts up a shot which misses. A held ball occurs on the rebound in front of me between H2 and V1. I sound my whistle and have my arms and thumbs up in the air. V1 lets go of the ball, but H2 does not and, instead, slams the ball about fifteen (15) feet into the air. Easy TF to call and Team H's HC reads H2 the riot act about losing his cool and takes him out of the game.

MTD, Sr.

Mark, I fail to see how this answers the "why" question.

Snaqs:

Read BadZebra' post between my two posts. He hits the nail on the proverbial head.

MTD, Sr.

Although the other points made to whack the player are sound, a ball bouncing 10' in the air is hardly a slam.
My automatics would be, at least, above the rim. :cool:

Gotcha!
FWIW, I'd probably have called the T. My original post in this thread didn't take into account that the kid had to actually get the ball after the whistle.

I still say it's not "automatic" when a kid bounces the ball a little hard (and it doesn't take much force to get it to bounce 10 feet high).

So, why was your post needed, then? :D

So what's your standard? 10 ft. is as high as the rim...plenty high enough for me to pull the trigger. My rule is if it's done out of frustration or anger and I have to look up to see how high it's going...then it's gonna be addressed.

I don't have an objective standard; it's completely subjective.

Depends on how high, how, and why.

Self frustration (follows airball or ball trown-away) will allow a little more tolerance. Who is the action directed at?

How high matters...no specific distance. 4' = nothing 40' = T. Everything else in between is judgement.

Ball ends up in his hands vs. player going to get ball makes a difference.


The whole picture has to be considered to get the right answer. A ball going 10' up dosn't get my attention unless it is directed at me or my partner.

Newton had no romantic attachments in his 84 years of life and died a virgin ...
 

It was a theory back in the olden days when you went to school. Now it's a scientific law.

Mark T. DeNucci, Sr., what was your favorite subject in school: Huntin', Gruntin', or Cave Painting?

Best response. There is no clean way out of this situation. You have to decide what is best for you. A terse scolding of the player if he is a good kid, he will have learned his lesson. A malcontent doing he same thing, probably a T. Either way, it's all up to the individual. Based on the orignal post, sounds like he sleeps OK with it.

Judgement call. There are lots of good refs on this board and it seems to come down to about 60% T and 40% no T. So I do not see a definitive answer. You have to decide.

Correct, IMO. I've been known to remind a player that he really doesn't want to make me have to decide whether or not it's a T.

I remember as a younger official asking this of a senior official. He said to me that if I am worrying about how *I* am ending the game then I am already thinking about the situation in the wrong way. *I* dont end the game, the players do. I'm not responsible for what they do. I'm responsible for enforcing the rules while using appropriate judgment. He said, judge the act and if possible the intent (looking at you, showing you up, acting in anger, etc), but always allow for the appropriate passion of a tight and excellent athletic contest. I dont like the fact that he went over to get the ball to spike it. And if it was a big spike, that sounds like a whack. But the criteria in my mind are what he did and why, not whether or not *I* am worried about how *I* and the game. Being in those situations and making those tough calls is what they pay us to do and what we train to do. I'm not criticizing, just sharing some wisdom that helped me.

Not so: general relativity is the law of the land regarding gravity. Now, if only we could find a way to make it play nice with quantum mechanics... ;)

You have to decide what is best for the game!

If you are worried about what is best for you ... you are in the wrong business.

Once again we play word parsing. You are 100% correct. My point was you have to be OK with whatever you do.

"Best for the game" can be argued forever. I generally opt for people skills over excessively rigid rulebook enforcement. Many here would disagree with that. I am genuinely disappointed when I have to give a technical foul for unsportsmanlike conduct, because I always try and use my people skills to prevent it before it is necessary. But I don't judge others. You have to live with and embrace your own style.

Dude, I think you're jumping when it's not necessary. What he's saying is that some officials will take care of this without a T, others will go with the T. There is a certain element of personal comfort level involved here, similar to how you deal with coaches.

Late to the party, but here's my $0.02

I'm thinking since you used "slams" plus an apostrophe, it merited a T

No matter

Since when do we get to write the script?

Absolutely not your concern.

Do you mean "Kid...you got away with one", or "If you do that again in another game in the same situation, I won't call it again, so please don't to that"

I say T, but more importantly, what did your Supervisor say?

Quote:
I'm thinking since you used "slams" plus an apostrophe, it merited a T
Pizanno, fyi - that's exclamation point (!), not apostrophe (') :D

Quote:
I go over to him tell him not to do that again.
T him, then talk to him so he doesn't commit a second T and get tossed. First T you couldn't warn him before it happened because you didn't know he would be that stupid to do that! (proper use of exclamation point) :D

Thanks, Travelin. I guess I missed the point, or the period! ;)

Touche Pizanno! Good to meet you. I can see you're a good sport.

not Jumping
 

No intention of talking down to or jumping on anyone.
I just spent an evening with two partners who were more worried about what was best for them and not the game. That as you can imagine
leads to some things that are not best for the game. So I may have over reacted but the terminology just struck me wrong.

I do not see much leeway for not calling a T here, this player did not have the ball when the play was blown dead, the player then picked up the ball and instead of handing it to an official, slammed the ball to the floor in such a manner that it went 10' in the air?

I can think of a couple of reasons the player might get whacked here, no matter who the player was upset with.

While I agree that the fact the player retrieved the ball prior to "slamming" it leads one to most likely call the T here; I still disagree that 10' is all that high. It doesn't take much effort at all to bounce it that high.

If this player already had the ball when the whistle was blown, then bounced it 10 feet, I don't think the T is so automatic.

Next question: did he catch it?

YU.P.
Merely dropping it from 6' bounces it over 4'1". :)

I do not really care about the height either - in this particular case it is the fact that got or retrieved the ball and did not give the ball to an official he slammed it that creates the conduct issue where he is going to get whacked.


Interesting point - But I doubt it would change my mind about whacking him because it was such an overt act.

What if he was walking to his bench when the ball was bouncing right in front of him, then he grabs it and "bounces" it.

I think the height does matter. If the original post had a player grabbing it and "bouncing it" rather than using the charged term "slam," no one would be crying for a T. So, what's the height threshold for a slam verses a bounce? If the OP had the player throwing it down and it only bounces 5 feet, is that a T?

To "T", Or Not To "T", That Is The Question ???
 

Same situation, but this time the player in question, instantly realizes that his intentions may have been mistaken, and that his action may have been impulsive, and unsporting, sprints to retrieve the ball, sprints back to the nearest official, hands the official the ball, and says, "Sorry Mr. BillyMac", all before a whistle is blown, or not blown, for a technical foul. Still a technical foul?

Again, you are 100% correct. You will see a lot of those guys fall by the wayside at some point. Not all, but most. Always fun to work with guys who will try and do anything to help themselves as an official instead of serving the game.

Whack for callin' me BillyMac. http://www.clicksmilies.com/s1106/sa...smiley-044.gif

Mr. mick Would Have Just Earned Him A Simple Techncial ...
 

And I ejected a coach who insulted me by calling me mick. I had no idea that he used to coach on Michigan's Upper Peninsula, and carried some bitter memories with him. I even went "off book signals" and gave him the old, "You're Outta Here" signal. Felt good. Real good.