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SamIAm Thu Dec 04, 2008 02:19pm

Jump or Step
 
A previous post got me to thinking. What is the difference between a jump and a step? Does one foot have to remain on the court for it to be a step? It is a fine line between the two as I see it.

A1 picks up his dribble, pivots then steps/jumps from pivot foot to non-pivot foot while retaining possession of the ball.. If it is a step, it is legal. If it is a jump, it is illegal.

Sure if the jump is vertical it is easy to define, but not when horizontal is added. Is it simply, however the official judges or is it as long as one foot remains on the court? I can think of no other criteria.

bob jenkins Thu Dec 04, 2008 02:42pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by SamIAm (Post 555425)
A previous post got me to thinking. What is the difference between a jump and a step? Does one foot have to remain on the court for it to be a step? It is a fine line between the two as I see it.

A1 picks up his dribble, pivots then steps/jumps from pivot foot to non-pivot foot while retaining possession of the ball.. If it is a step, it is legal. If it is a jump, it is illegal.

Sure if the jump is vertical it is easy to define, but not when horizontal is added. Is it simply, however the official judges or is it as long as one foot remains on the court? I can think of no other criteria.

I don't think the previous post is correct. Note that the part about "if the player jumps, neither foot may be returned to the floor" applies only "AFTER coming to a stop and establishing a pivot foot" -- in the situations you are describing, the player doesn't stop and the pivot foot isn't established until the other foot touches.

SamIAm Thu Dec 04, 2008 03:37pm

try again
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by bob jenkins (Post 555435)
I don't think the previous post is correct. Note that the part about "if the player jumps, neither foot may be returned to the floor" applies only "AFTER coming to a stop and establishing a pivot foot" -- in the situations you are describing, the player doesn't stop and the pivot foot isn't established until the other foot touches.

Perhaps I didn't set-up my sitch very well. It is not meant to question a jump-stop.

A1 picks up his dribble, then pivots, then steps/jumps from pivot foot to non-pivot foot while retaining possession of the ball. If it is a step, it is legal. If it is a jump, it is illegal. Jumping while holding the ball and returning to the floor, when not part of a jumpstop and with no intervening action, is a violation isn't it?

bob jenkins Thu Dec 04, 2008 03:57pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by SamIAm (Post 555458)
Perhaps I didn't set-up my sitch very well. It is not meant to question a jump-stop.

A1 picks up his dribble, then pivots, then steps/jumps from pivot foot to non-pivot foot while retaining possession of the ball. If it is a step, it is legal. If it is a jump, it is illegal. Jumping while holding the ball and returning to the floor, when not part of a jumpstop and with no intervening action, is a violation isn't it?

It is if the conditions in the rule are met.

SamIAm Thu Dec 04, 2008 05:03pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by bob jenkins (Post 555462)
It is if the conditions in the rule are met.

I admire your effort Bob, but you have been of little help. I have modified your answer so that it work with nearly any question involving a violation. Feel free to use it.

It is a violation if the conditions in the violation rule are met.

A little help anyone.

All_Heart Thu Dec 04, 2008 06:09pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by SamIAm (Post 555458)
A1 picks up his dribble, then pivots, then steps/jumps from pivot foot to non-pivot foot while retaining possession of the ball. If it is a step, it is legal. If it is a jump, it is illegal. Jumping while holding the ball and returning to the floor, when not part of a jumpstop and with no intervening action, is a violation isn't it?

What you have described is LEGAL. The player did not put his/her pivot foot back on the ground after lifting it. It doesn't matter if they jump or step. In fact what you described would be what an athletic player usually does on a layup.

tjchamp Thu Dec 04, 2008 07:22pm

Look at 4.44.3.a. - The pivot foot may be lifted, but not returned to the floor, before the ball is released on a pass or try for goal. Until the players pivot returns to the floor you got nothing.

Camron Rust Thu Dec 04, 2008 07:42pm

It is sad that no one is giving you an answer to your actual question.

You are correct that the movement must be judged to either be a step or a jump....that the result is either legal or a violation depending on that judgement. There is no explicit rule or even guideline that has ever been published that defines either.

My rule of thumb is to judge the primary direction of the movement....up = jump, lateral = step.

Camron Rust Thu Dec 04, 2008 07:43pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by All_Heart (Post 555524)
What you have described is LEGAL. The player did not put his/her pivot foot back on the ground after lifting it. It doesn't matter if they jump or step. In fact what you described would be what an athletic player usually does on a layup.

The problem with that is that after a jump NEITHER foot can return to the floor before passing/shooting.

just another ref Fri Dec 05, 2008 12:36am

Quote:

Originally Posted by All_Heart (Post 555524)
It doesn't matter if they jump or step. In fact what you described would be what an athletic player usually does on a layup.

Case in point: Lebron James Frequently on his drives he broad jumps from one foot to the other. Of course, in his case, this sometimes comes after he has already taken a step or two. Yet another move that young kids try to duplicate which is not legal in their games.

NBA Action!! A nightmare for NFHS officials.

Rule of thumb in layman's terms: Jump, step, whatever you wish to call it; if everything leaves the floor at once, nothing may return to the floor while holding the ball.

bob jenkins Fri Dec 05, 2008 09:36am

Quote:

Originally Posted by SamIAm (Post 555498)
I admire your effort Bob, but you have been of little help. I have modified your answer so that it work with nearly any question involving a violation. Feel free to use it.

It is a violation if the conditions in the violation rule are met.

A little help anyone.

That's because I didn't (don't) understand from your post what the player did in terms of the requirements of the rule. Did the player come to a stop? Was a pivot foot established (by the terms of the rule -- stopping, with only one foot on the floor does not establish that foot as the pivot foot)?

If both those answers are "yes", then I would envision a step as being within, well, stepping distance (say, 3' for a guard to 4' for a tall center) and mostly horizontal (the center of mass stays about 4' above the floor). A jump would be if the distance is more than that or the center of mass rises then falls.

It's judgment -- sometimes you just have to officiate.

SamIAm Fri Dec 05, 2008 09:57am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Camron Rust (Post 555539)
It is sad that no one is giving you an answer to your actual question.

You are correct that the movement must be judged to either be a step or a jump....that the result is either legal or a violation depending on that judgement. There is no explicit rule or even guideline that has ever been published that defines either.

My rule of thumb is to judge the primary direction of the movement....up = jump, lateral = step.

An oasis in the desert. Thanks Cam, that is how I see it. If it looks like a jump, it was a jump, otherwise it is a step.

SamIAm Fri Dec 05, 2008 10:04am

Quote:

Originally Posted by bob jenkins (Post 555604)
That's because I didn't (don't) understand from your post what the player did in terms of the requirements of the rule. Did the player come to a stop? Was a pivot foot established (by the terms of the rule -- stopping, with only one foot on the floor does not establish that foot as the pivot foot)?

If both those answers are "yes", then I would envision a step as being within, well, stepping distance (say, 3' for a guard to 4' for a tall center) and mostly horizontal (the center of mass stays about 4' above the floor). A jump would be if the distance is more than that or the center of mass rises then falls.

It's judgment -- sometimes you just have to officiate.

I tried to express the idea of A1 stopping and pivoting, but it is not always easy to by concise and specific. This answer is the kind of info I was looking for.

Thanks Bob.


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