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hopsy24 Thu Dec 04, 2008 12:17pm
Traveling?
 
A1 dribbles down the court and picks up the ball at the left elbow of the lane. B1 is guarding A1 whose pivot is his right foot. A1 takes a step and a half with his left foot and shoots it. I call traveling. Player and coach go crazy and say that isn't the rule. First off in my mind he just switched his pivot. Also, in part b of the rule below it says that if the player jumps, neither foot may be returned to the floor.

Rule 4 - Section VIII and Rule 10 - Section XIV

3. After coming to a stop and establishing a pivot foot:
a. The pivot foot may be lifted, but not returned to the floor, before the ball is released on a pass or try for goal;
b. If the player jumps, neither foot may be returned to the floor before the ball is released on a pass or attempt for goal;
c. The pivot foot may not be lifted, before the ball is released, to start a dribble.

fiasco Thu Dec 04, 2008 12:23pm
How did he switch his pivot foot?

Camron Rust Thu Dec 04, 2008 12:24pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by hopsy24 (Post 555380)
A1 dribbles down the court and picks up the ball at the left elbow of the lane. B1 is guarding A1 whose pivot is his right foot. A1 takes a step and a half with his left foot and shoots it. I call traveling. Player and coach go crazy and say that isn't the rule. First off in my mind he just switched his pivot. Also, in part b of the rule below it says that if the player jumps, neither foot may be returned to the floor.

Rule 4 - Section VIII and Rule 10 - Section XIV

3. After coming to a stop and establishing a pivot foot:
a. The pivot foot may be lifted, but not returned to the floor, before the ball is released on a pass or try for goal;
b. If the player jumps, neither foot may be returned to the floor before the ball is released on a pass or attempt for goal;
c. The pivot foot may not be lifted, before the ball is released, to start a dribble.
Coach was right....if i understand you correctly....

A1 pivoting with his right foot on the floor. A1 pivots steping on his left foot towards the basket, lifts his right foot (and probably sweeps it through towards the basket), jumps off his left foot, and shoots.

Legal.

The pivot foot is not "switched" (i.e., it is not a travel) until the original pivot foot is both lifted and returned to the floor.

fiasco Thu Dec 04, 2008 12:25pm
You can take as many steps as you want with your non-pivot foot, provided your pivot foot doesn't lift in the process.

You kicked this one, but I'm sure you'll remember this play for the future.

ma_ref Thu Dec 04, 2008 12:26pm
I think I'm confused by what you mean when you say he takes a "step and a half".

You said the pivot foot was his right. He ended up taking a shot, so the only question you need to ask is whether he lifted his right foot and returned it to the ground. Merely lifting it doesn't constitute a travel violation. But returning it does.

Hartsy Thu Dec 04, 2008 12:27pm
Sounds to me like the pivot foot was lifted but not returned to the floor before the try. No violation. I am unclear on what a step and half is, using only the left foot.

Scrapper1 Thu Dec 04, 2008 12:28pm
First, welcome to the forum. You'll pick up a lot of good info here.

Second, I can't really picture what happened from your description, so I can't give a good answer about whether he traveled.

Third, it would be a good start for you to get away from thinking about "a step and a half" or "two steps" when you call traveling. Simply find the pivot, which you did, and then remember what he can do with that pivot. He can lift the pivot to pass or attempt a try, as long as the ball is released before it returns to the ground. If he's moving (jumping or running), he can also jump off that pivot foot and then land on both feet together, but then he has no pivot. (Technically, he never had a pivot foot, but you know what I mean.) He can still jump to shoot or pass in that situation.

hopsy24 Thu Dec 04, 2008 01:18pm
First off, I'm sorry for not being clear in the first post.

A1 established his pivot as the right foot. Then A1 stepped with his left foot, lifting his pivot, and then jumped off the left then shot it in the air. His pivot foot left the floor not to shoot, but to take a step. Part B of the rule says, "b. If the player jumps, neither foot may be returned to the floor before the ball is released on a pass or attempt for goal;" I interpret this that A1 is jumping off his pivot foot, not any foot. His right foot is the pivot foot, therefore A1 must jump off either the pivot foot or both feet at the same time to shoot or pass the ball before either foot touches the floor in those situations.

jdw3018 Thu Dec 04, 2008 01:21pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by hopsy24 (Post 555400)
First off, I'm sorry for not being clear in the first post.

A1 established his pivot as the right foot. Then A1 stepped with his left foot, lifting his pivot, and then jumped off the left then shot it in the air. His pivot foot left the floor not to shoot, but to take a step. Part B of the rule says, "b. If the player jumps, neither foot may be returned to the floor before the ball is released on a pass or attempt for goal;" I interpret this that A1 is jumping off his pivot foot, not any foot. His right foot is the pivot foot, therefore A1 must jump off either the pivot foot or both feet at the same time to shoot or pass the ball before either foot touches the floor in those situations.
Thanks for the clarification.

This is not a travel. A player can lift his pivot foot and just stand on the other foot. He can jump off that foot. But he can't put his pivot foot back down, and once he jumps, neither foot may touch the ground.

Johnny Ringo Thu Dec 04, 2008 01:24pm
Can someone give an aexample of this situation:

If he's moving (jumping or running), he can also jump off that pivot foot and then land on both feet together, but then he has no pivot. (Technically, he never had a pivot foot, but you know what I mean.)

hopsy24 Thu Dec 04, 2008 01:40pm
Thanks for the quick responses.

When I used to play during High School and College that was called a travel. It was also called during the NCAA tournament last year by (I think) someone on Temple.
Is that how the rule was always interpreted or did it change over the years at some point?

jdw3018 Thu Dec 04, 2008 01:41pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnny Ringo (Post 555403)
Can someone give an aexample of this situation:

If he's moving (jumping or running), he can also jump off that pivot foot and then land on both feet together, but then he has no pivot. (Technically, he never had a pivot foot, but you know what I mean.)
All of what you said is correct. If dribbling, a player can pick up the ball, jump off his left foot, and then land simultaneously on both feet.

It's a jump stop.

jdw3018 Thu Dec 04, 2008 01:43pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by hopsy24 (Post 555406)
Thanks for the quick responses.

When I used to play during High School and College that was called a travel. It was also called during the NCAA tournament last year by (I think) someone on Temple.
Is that how the rule was always interpreted or did it change over the years at some point?
It hasn't always been called that way, but many officials have mistakenly called it because it can sometimes "look funny."

And I doubt it was called in the NCAA tournament last season - at least not purposefully. If an NCAA official called it, he likely saw something else...

Johnny Ringo Thu Dec 04, 2008 01:44pm
From the play you just said - after jump stopping ... no pivot is allowed, correct?

jdw3018 Thu Dec 04, 2008 01:46pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnny Ringo (Post 555410)
From the play you just said - after jump stopping ... no pivot is allowed, correct?
Correct. At that point the player can pass or shoot. The player is allowed to jump.

If the player caught the ball on a pass and executed the same jump stop, he'd also be able to dribble.

Johnny Ringo Thu Dec 04, 2008 01:52pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by jdw3018 (Post 555411)
Correct. At that point the player can pass or shoot. The player is allowed to jump.

If the player caught the ball on a pass and executed the same jump stop, he'd also be able to dribble.
In summary ... a player who is dribbling jumps, off of one foot, gathers the ball in the air and lands on two feet (jump stop) they have no pivot from that point. They can jump to shoot or pass.

If the player caught the ball on the pass, land on two feet (jump stop) ... they can pivot from that position as well as dribble, shoot, pass ...

jdw3018 Thu Dec 04, 2008 01:57pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnny Ringo (Post 555412)
In summary ... a player who is dribbling jumps, off of one foot, gathers the ball in the air and lands on two feet (jump stop) they have no pivot from that point. They can jump to shoot or pass.

If the player caught the ball on the pass, land on two feet (jump stop) ... they can pivot from that position as well as dribble, shoot, pass ...
No...if they gather the ball in the air and land on two feet, they can establish a pivot. If they gather the ball with one foot on the floor, then jump off it and land on two feet, they cannot establish a pivot.

Edit: Whether they were dribbling or receiving a pass is not important (outside of whether they can dribble after the jump stop). The important part is that this is particular way a player can move that is not traveling.

Scratch85 Thu Dec 04, 2008 02:10pm
The Jump Stop is hard for me to catch. Someone line this out for me. Player is dribbling and picks up the ball while only his right foot(1) is touching the floor steps onto his left(2) foot and jumps, comes down with both feet(3) simultaneously hitting the floor. Is this a legal Jump Stop or a travel?

Johnny Ringo Thu Dec 04, 2008 02:14pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by jdw3018 (Post 555414)
No...if they gather the ball in the air and land on two feet, they can establish a pivot. If they gather the ball with one foot on the floor, then jump off it and land on two feet, they cannot establish a pivot.
Thanks for clearing that up. The second part: If they gather the ball with one foot on the floor, then jump off it and land on two feet, they cannot establish a pivot ... IMO ... This is rarely seen.

jdw3018 Thu Dec 04, 2008 02:17pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scratch85 (Post 555421)
The Jump Stop is hard for me to catch. Someone line this out for me. Player is dribbling and picks up the ball while only his right foot(1) is touching the floor steps onto his left(2) foot and jumps, comes down with both feet(3) simultaneously hitting the floor. Is this a legal Jump Stop or a travel?
That is a travel.

There are two ways a true jump stop happens:

(1) The player is in the air when he gathers the ball. He then lands on one foot. He jumps off that foot and lands on both feet simultaneously. For example, he lands on his right foot, jumps off it and lands with both feet.

(2) The player gathers the ball with one foot on the ground. He then jumps off that foot and lands on both feet simultaneously. For example, he is standing on his left foot when he catches the ball, jumps off it and lands on both feet simultaneously.

I hope this is clear (as mud).

jdw3018 Thu Dec 04, 2008 02:18pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnny Ringo (Post 555422)
Thanks for clearing that up. The second part: If they gather the ball with one foot on the floor, then jump off it and land on two feet, they cannot establish a pivot ... IMO ... This is rarely seen.
IMO it is seen quite often, especially the higher the level of play. It's just that many officials think it looks funny and call it.

SamIAm Thu Dec 04, 2008 02:21pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by hopsy24 (Post 555380)
A1 dribbles down the court and picks up the ball at the left elbow of the lane. B1 is guarding A1 whose pivot is his right foot. A1 takes a step and a half with his left foot and shoots it. I call traveling. Player and coach go crazy and say that isn't the rule. First off in my mind he just switched his pivot. Also, in part b of the rule below it says that if the player jumps, neither foot may be returned to the floor.

Rule 4 - Section VIII and Rule 10 - Section XIV

3. After coming to a stop and establishing a pivot foot:
a. The pivot foot may be lifted, but not returned to the floor, before the ball is released on a pass or try for goal;
b. If the player jumps, neither foot may be returned to the floor before the ball is released on a pass or attempt for goal;
c. The pivot foot may not be lifted, before the ball is released, to start a dribble.
I think it depends on whether you judge the change of pivot foot to non pivot foot as a jump or a step. Jump = illegal - Step = Legal

Scratch85 Thu Dec 04, 2008 02:22pm
That is clear, thanks for the confirmation. Fortunately, that is how I call it. I use the 1,2,3 touches of the floor after picking up the ball as my indicator. However, I see this missed at the HS level a lot. Something about coming down on both feet seems to freeze the official.

Nothing worse than an official with cold feet!

Raymond Thu Dec 04, 2008 02:24pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by jdw3018 (Post 555409)
...
And I doubt it was called in the NCAA tournament last season - at least not purposefully. If an NCAA official called it, he likely saw something else...
I believe this year's NCAA video has several examples of incorrectly called travelling violations, all from last year's tournament. I know for a fact there is at least one in there b/c it was made by one of my mentors. :o

bob jenkins Thu Dec 04, 2008 02:35pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by jdw3018 (Post 555423)
That is a travel.

There are two ways a true jump stop happens:

(1) The player is in the air when he gathers the ball. He then lands on one foot. He jumps off that foot and lands on both feet simultaneously. For example, he lands on his right foot, jumps off it and lands with both feet.

(2) The player gathers the ball with one foot on the ground. He then jumps off that foot and lands on both feet simultaneously. For example, he is standing on his left foot when he catches the ball, jumps off it and lands on both feet simultaneously.

I hope this is clear (as mud).
Agreed. Note however that coaches / players and the NCAA also include "Gathering the ball in the air and landing on both feet simultaneously" as a Jump Stop. In this case, either foot can be the pivot foot.

bob jenkins Thu Dec 04, 2008 02:36pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scratch85 (Post 555421)
The Jump Stop is hard for me to catch. Someone line this out for me. Player is dribbling and picks up the ball while only his right foot(1) is touching the floor steps onto his left(2) foot and jumps, comes down with both feet(3) simultaneously hitting the floor. Is this a legal Jump Stop or a travel?
Travel. Read 4-traveling, apply it to the situation you describe and it will become clear.

Johnny Ringo Thu Dec 04, 2008 02:39pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by jdw3018 (Post 555424)
IMO it is seen quite often, especially the higher the level of play. It's just that many officials think it looks funny and call it.
You guys have lost me on this ... maybe in the way it is described. I am a former Div. I point guard (mid major) and now a high school varsity ref ...

I don't ever remember having the ball with my pivot on the floor and jumping to a jump stop. And don't recall seeing it hardly ever.

Now, obviously jumping off one foot gathering the ball in the air and landing on two feet is done very often.

jdw3018 Thu Dec 04, 2008 02:52pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by bob jenkins (Post 555431)
Agreed. Note however that coaches / players and the NCAA also include "Gathering the ball in the air and landing on both feet simultaneously" as a Jump Stop. In this case, either foot can be the pivot foot.
Yep. One of the reasons this is complicated is that the "jump stop" as taught in many basketball programs is simply landing on both feet simultaneously. Meanwhile, the "Jump Stop" as defined includes jumping off one foot after the ball has been gathered, then landing on both feet simultaneously.

Thanks for pointing that out, bob.

jdw3018 Thu Dec 04, 2008 02:53pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnny Ringo (Post 555433)
You guys have lost me on this ... maybe in the way it is described. I am a former Div. I point guard (mid major) and now a high school varsity ref ...

I don't ever remember having the ball with my pivot on the floor and jumping to a jump stop. And don't recall seeing it hardly ever.

Now, obviously jumping off one foot gathering the ball in the air and landing on two feet is done very often.
You'll see it a lot in drives into the lane. That's where I see it most often. A player will gather and jump off one foot past a defender, land on both, and then go up for the shot.

Another place it is used sometimes is in catching a ball and squaring to shoot on the perimeter.

Johnny Ringo Thu Dec 04, 2008 03:06pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by jdw3018 (Post 555443)
Another place it is used sometimes is in catching a ball and squaring to shoot on the perimeter.
Excellent example ... I do see this all of the time! And it is called a lot by officials as a violation.

And to confirm this play is different and legal ... correct:
if they gather the ball in the air and land on two feet, they can establish a pivot.

jdw3018 Thu Dec 04, 2008 03:22pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnny Ringo (Post 555447)
And to confirm this play is different and legal ... correct:
if they gather the ball in the air and land on two feet, they can establish a pivot.
Correct.


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