More thoughts from John Adams
 

A few days ago, I got an email from my D3 association containing some thoughts from John Adams, NCAA Coordinator of Officials. I posted it here: Blarge Alert

I don't know how (probably through my eOfficials.com account), but I somehow got subscribed to an email newsletter from Ref60.com. In any case, they posted a brief interview with John Adams and so I thought I'd share it. There's no registration required to listen:

John Adams on Transitioning to College Ball

There were a couple of comments that really raised my eyebrows, but I won't post them yet. I'd like to hear everybody's thoughts, though.

Only thing that stood out to me was the comment about watching the players and they will tell you if you got the play right.

My experience is that this is true to a degree. The kid who commits a fouls rarely thinks he fouled them...some plays, however, I have made a call that I thought was iffy and players have gone right along with it like it was no big deal...must have gotten it right.

Overall, I think Mr. Adam's comments are in line with what I have experienced.

My Favorite John Adams Quote ...
 

"Our obligations to our country never cease but with our lives".

Loved the HBO miniseries.

I thought the contrast between HS and college coaches was interesting.

Is congratulating players on a good play something you personally do? I never have I've always assumed it to be out of line. Maybe I'm wrong...

I always congratulate 3rd graders after a successful dunk. :eek:

"Does anybody hear what I hear?" Wm Daniel as John Adams in "1776"
 

I just listened to the interview also. Many things ran through my mind, including the coach comment. Knowing that I have many, many, many plays to see before even thinking about moving past HS level, I nevertheless would like to keep my eye on that possibility...

Anyway, the other thing that struck me was the comment about the level of play (not the speed of the game, which I was not surprised to hear) at even the D3 level (not to disparage any level of play)... I have heard some of our varsity/college guys talk in terms of considering whether or not they'd like a college D3 game in a gym with 20 people or a good HS varsity game with 1500 people.

What do we think about that comment?

This was one of the things that raised my eyebrows. This sounds, frankly, like a coach's perspective, not an official's perspective. I think that in the vast majority of cases, the players have no idea if you got the play right. Players and coaches almost always look astonished that you could have possibly called a foul on that play. There are, of course, obvious plays where everybody in the gym knows that there was a foul; but in those cases, why would we need to check to see if we got it right?

The other thing that I thought was a little off the mark was the comment that "anticipation" is helpful in high school, but not in college. His thinking seems to be that because the players are more skilled and athletic, they can do things that aren't seen in most high school games; so you can't (or shouldn't) anticipate what might happen. But this seems to show a misunderstanding of what we're anticipating. We're not anticipating that we're going to call a foul on the defender and then -- OOPS! -- he actually got to the spot first and it should've been a charge. We're anticipating that we're about to have a one-on-one drive with a possible crash, so we locate the defender. Anticipate the PLAY, not the CALL. I think that's just as valid at the college level as in high school.

Anybody think I'm way off-base?

I think I understand what he's saying, and I agree with it. Have you ever had a ball go OOB in front of you, and you're not initially sure whose ball it should be, and before you ask for help you see all the players start walking to other end of the floor? They know whose ball it is. And there really is a subtle difference in player reactions when they really are astonished/confused at the call, as opposed to the "I've gotta look amazed so coach doesn't chew my a$$ for that stupid foul". You've probably also seen that look when you blow the whistle for the foul when there are two defenders there - one of them will give you the truly amazed look, then relax after you tell them the call was actually against their teammate.

It's not a 100% accurate barometer, and it doesn't happen every game, but there really are instances where a player can indicate whether or not you got the call right or wrong.

Concur, that's what I interpreted that statement to mean as well.

Yes, but I've also seen players that automatically point in their own direction on
every out of bounds call, and then say good call when I point the other way.

I think what he is saying is that a play we anticipate in high school is not the same play we can anticipate in a college game. In HS that play may only have 1 or 2 possible outcomes that we look for but in college the athletism of the players allows for 4 or 5 possible outcomes. That's my interpretation of his statement.

Of course, they are the same players that think they never foul either, but you learn to tell the difference. On the OOB call, I've made what I thought was the right call while the players are walking the other way, and I'm grateful when I see my partner coming up to tell me I missed a tip. It's kind of hard to ignore when all the players disagree with my initial assessment, not just a single player.

If you work this game long enough, you can see subtle differences in reactions and behavior between players that "want" a call, and players that truly know when you've missed one. I'm going to go out on a limb and say you can <B>sometimes</B> even tell from a crowd reaction that a call was missed. Of course, I don't normally listen to crowds and players, but sometimes there is a different tone and reaction than the normal displeasure. Like I said, it doesn't happen every game, but after a while you can tell a difference.

1) The tape was more than 60-seconds. They should call it "3:30 on officiating"

2) I don't think John was saying "use the players to help you make the call" as much as he was saying "use the players to help you evaluate your officiating and what you need to work on."

I wonder if John was using his 10-second backcourt count to count out the length of the tape? :eek:

Agreed.

I do this a lot. When a player dives for the ball, when a player makes a great hustle play I will let them know I noticed. This is a great way to get their attention so when you say something they might not like, they will listen to you at that time.

Peace

I completely agree with your assessment on this.

Peace

That's not what I got out of it, obviously; but if that's all he meant, I can live with that.

If that's what he was saying, then I couldn't disagree more. Players know jack about the rules and officiating. I would NEVER consider a player's reaction to be useful in evaluating what I need to work on.

I agree. I will often say "Nice hustle", but I will never say "Nice shot" or something similar. Congratulating a kid on a scoring play is a little too close to rooting for my liking. (And just to be clear, I'm NOT saying that JRutledge said that he would do that. I'm just stating my own feeling on it.)

Coaches as well. I usually figure I'm doing a good job if both coaches are pissed off at me. :D

Hey now, I got a 92 and a half!!!:p

True, I wouldn't use a player's reaction as the lead item in the teaching syllabus. But it is useful information, in that I can look back over that play and evaluate why I probably missed that call. Maybe I was lazy in a rotation; maybe I guessed at contact instead of actually seeing the contact; maybe I was looking somewhere I should not have been looking?

Never say never and never say always.

How about the reaction of the offended player? Ever call a foul and then notice that the offended player is surprised to be going to the free throw line? or he chuckles and pats the defender on the butt b/c he knows he just got a freebie?

Anticipating comment caught my attention. A patient whistle works on every level.

Yes, but it is much more essential at the college ranks. You can call something quick often at the high school ranks and everyone thinks you called the right thing. That is not often the case with college players and their abilities. Many high school officials call things just because it looks bad or because it might technically fit the definition of a foul.

Peace

this is a "when in Rome...." situation. if you don't agree w/ Mr. Adams, then keep it to yourself if you are interested in working in the NCAA D1 Tournament. If that is of no interest to you, then by all means, go right ahead and state your disagreement. comments have a funny way of getting around in this business (which reminds me: do you know the 3 forms of communication? 1) telephone, 2) telefax, and 3) tell-a-ref.....)

First of all, I don't think there are too many of us on this forum who have serious hopes of working the tournament.

Second, hopefully, Mr. Adams is adult enough that he can listen to other points of view from people who have been officiating for 10, 15, or 20 years without holding grudges.

Third, I'm not sure why you think you're the authority on how the tournament selection process works or why you think you're the right person to tell others to "keep it to yourself".

My take
 

I do not think that Jeff's comments were about how many want to work the tournament. I think he was giving a cautious warning to those that are here that would some day like to work the D1 level. And there are people here that have that desire. I know Jeff and I have met them going to the same camps.

Secondly, I really do not think John cares what you or I think regardless of how long with have been officiating. John is a person that comes up with his way of thinking and it was not developed because people agreed or disagreed with him.

And finally, this comment was not about being an authority. All the times people say things and speak does not make them an authority. Considering we have a couple of people that think every time the NF says something I hardly look at these comments as someone trying to be an authority.

Peace

Scrapper1, don't sell yourself short. you should always have lofty goals to which you strive.....

Like a good official who doesn't tell a coach he's "wrong", my previous post used the word "if" twice in the second sentence conditioned on the fact that you may be interested in working the tournament (of course I followed that up with the caveat that you're free to say whatever you want if you have no interest in the tourney). I'm sorry if you took offense to that...I should have said..."if you don't agree w/ Mr. Adams, then you probably should keep it to yourself".....

You see the person (technically the D1 Men's Basketball Committee) responsible for selecting tourney officials gets to select them based on his/their criteria. You can work a game however you want, but if it is not to their liking, you don't get assigned a game (or advance past a certain level). Steve Welmer has worked 110+ D1 games every year for a long time and has never advanced to the Final Four....why that is I don't know, but I certainly think he is skilled enough to work that assignment.

Discussion forums like these work best when you do not try to "read between the lines". I did not position myself as the tournament authority nor do I feel that I'm the "right one" to tell others to keep quiet.

By the way, since you have no "serious hopes of working the tournament", my post encouraged you to: "go right ahead and state your disagreement" (w/ Mr. Adams). Why did the post bother you so much?

Sure sounded to me like you were using fear tactics to stifle a reasonable discussion ("keep it to yourself"). That doesn't sit well with me. If we can't reasonably talk about differences of opinion in officiating topics, even when we're disagreeing with the Coordinator of Officials, then what's the point of even having this Forum.

Come on now!!
 

Fear tactics? You are not serious are you?

Even if that was the intention, if you do not work college ball and specifically Division 1, I do not see how you would have something to be afraid of. And if you do work college ball or you are on the verge of working D1, then you should already have the sense to know that what you say might get you into trouble. This is the very reason the likes of Chuck E and others do not really post here anymore. Would you consider Chuck E of using fear tactics when he said on this board why he and others do not post here anymore?

If you want to discuss your disagreement, I do not see how what Jeff said was going to prevent you from your opinions being shared.

Peace