New one for me
 

Ok, I'm going to start by saying I believe that I (won't say we b/c partner didn't want to do this) got this wrong. Just wanted to see what everybody else would do. I'm also trying to justify what I did as well ;) In any case here is the play...

Start of the 4th quarter. Team A leads by like 50 and is getting the ball. Team A lines up the wrong way, as does Team B. My partner and I don't say anything, thinking they are going to run the "trick" play of lining up backwards so they get an easy 2 points off the unsuspecting D. Team A inbounds the ball to their backcourt (Team B frontcourt) and I start my 10 second count. They dribble toward Team B basket, make 2 or 3 passes and shoot. The shot hits nothing but the bottom of the net! My partner and I kill the play. The clock is showing 7:53. Now for the fun... I relate the situation to starting the game going the wrong direction and count the 2 points for Team A and give Team B the ball at the other end correcting the wrong direction. What I'm betting everybody else will say is that Team B should get the 2 points and Team A has the throw-in anywhere along the end line. I agree with that

My logic came from the case play where both teams go the wrong direction to start the game. Rule 4-5-something (I don't have my rulebook in front of me) says that if the officials permit the teams to go the wrong direction, then all points, time consumed, etc... count as though they were scored in the correct basket. IOW, what I did. My partner and I were the only one's in the gym who knew that they had just scored at the wrong basket. Team B was playing defense and Team A made 2-3 passes prior to shooting. Although I was counting 10 seconds, I believe we permitted both teams to go the wrong direction.

Again, just wanted some other input on this. Still not 100% convinced I was wrong, but I am 97% convinced. I guess it all depends on what your definition of permit is? Oh well.

edited to add: My partner on the game also posts on this forum. I have alerted him to this and I'm sure that he will be along shortly to give his viewpoint of the play in question.

As soon as it was apparent both teams were playing the wrong way (not just lining up for a trick play), you should have blown the ball dead.

What you did by allowing them to play the wrong way was outside the rules, therefore I think you did the right thing by following the case play in which everyone believes they are going the right way.

First off how did you and your partner line up to start the quarter, I will assume correctly, since you were looking for the "trick play".

If you lined up correctly and they go the wrong way, it isn't your job to stop them, what if it was a two point game and that mistake would tie the score, a tie game with seconds to play for the title of the world, for what reason by rule are you stoping the game?

If you point the correct direction and are lined up properly and the players go the wrong way - you do not have the authority by rule to stop them.

Permitting them to go the wrong way IMHO means you the official are responsible for the incorrect directions they are going.

[QUOTE=OHBBREF;554433]First off how did you and your partner line up to start the quarter, I will assume correctly, since you were looking for the "trick play".

[QUOTE]

I was the R and was to the Team A backcourt side of the thrower. My partner did not go to the Team A's baseline, rather he stayed at about mid court. Not where I go, but I also don't think his position was incorrect either.

I thought about (in the future if this happens again) blowing it dead as soon as it is apparent that they believe they are going that way.

[QUOTE=Texref;554434][QUOTE=OHBBREF;554433]First off how did you and your partner line up to start the quarter, I will assume correctly, since you were looking for the "trick play".

If it's apparent everyone is playing backwards, blow it dead and set them straight.

Ok, so in the future I'll do that, but what would you have done in the situation presented?

[QUOTE=Texref;554434]Again, please -site a rule, a case play or something that says after you told them the correct direction to go, that authorizes you to stop the action and prevent a team from going the wrong way?

Exactly as you did, based on the same case play you mentioned. I disagree that you did it wrong (other than letting play continue).

Before I hand the ball off to the thrower starting a period, I ALWAYS point the direction ("White ball going this direction" *insert pointing finger that way*). I do it just before I hand the ball off.

However if the thrower put the ball in play into the team's BC, there is nothing to be done. I don't believe there is anything the official can do until there is a dead ball (ie made basket, violation, etc). If they inbound the ball into their FC and they run to their BC, we have a BC violation.

Just my two cents...

-Josh

So what you are saying is thatif team A inbounds on the base line in their backcourt after a timeout, and Team B is pressing - A1 inbounds to A3 who is cutting toward the baseline and then just drives to hoop and throws toward the basket you realize that they are going the wrong way so are you going to stop it?

if you line them up right you are not responsible for what they do after that point.

I do the same thing. Unfortunately they did not throw the ball into their front court, which is what usually happens when lined up for the trick play, they threw it in their backcourt and proceeded to play there. They got the shot off prior to a 10 second backcourt count.

I believe that what we can stop play and not permit them to continue the wrong direction(s) if it is obvious, as it was in this case, that everybody is going the wrong direction. If we don't stop it and know it, then I believe, 3% worth anyways :D, that we have permitted both teams to play in the wrong direction and therefore my ruling on the floor was correct.

Completely different play -- there's a difference between one team being confused and both teams being confused.

What's more, if I'm getting the defending team out of the huddle, I'll tell them which way we're going, too (white ball coming this way, for example). If I'm the R, I'm pointing before the teams are set and pointing again before putting it in play and being quite vocal about it.

After we tell the teams a few times which way we're going I'm also going to be the lead in the proper frontcourt -- I'm not part of any kind of trickery like this.

This happened at the beginning of the 4th quarter? I'm having a hard time seeing how they could end up going the wrong way by accident. What level is it? I see them roaming around in the BC (and they're ahead by 50!?!) , I'm counting. They shoot, team B gets the points, and A gets the ball and another 10 seconds to get the ball into the FC. If they do it again, I'm calling it unsportsmanlike and assessing a T.

This was a varsity boys game! Team A (team ahead by about 50) put their third stringers in the game (they had 15 in the book!:eek:). They weren't roaming, they were running a play and Team B was playing defense. I don't disagree with you by giving Team B the points and Team A the ball. That is what my partner said on the floor. After the game we ran it by the other officials replacing us and the other two crews (tournament setting) that were there. They all said they would have given Team B the points and Team A the ball.

So Bob, what would you have done on this play?

Ok, so what would you do in the play in question. I'm not really looking for ways to avoid it in the future as I already point the direction and line up correctly, even if the team says they are running the trick play.

As soon as I recognized it (unless a try was imminent) I would have stopped them and pointed the correct direction.

The rules say which basket each team is to shoot towards with relation to their benches based on the half of play. If they're both playing incorrectly, it's your job to fix it; you have to intervene if they are both playing it incorrectly. If you don't realize it until the ball goes in the hoop, give the points to the team that made the basket and..... basically, use the case play for the same error at the beginning of the game.

If you realize it sooner, fix it. As Bob said, it's completely different than if only one team is confused. In that case, you let it play out, give the points to the team whose basket was scored in, and give the ball to the team that just put the ball in the hole for their endline throwin.

Otherwise, if both teams are confused, you'd have to call a violation on B for taking the ball out after A makes the basket in the wrong hoop. Or on A (5 seconds) if B knows what they're doing and just lets it bounce.

Oh, how I miss the days of the center jump to start each quarter (NFHS) and each half (NCAA). :)

MTD, Sr.

I agree with that.
This whole situation comes down to proper mechanics.

NFHS OFFICIALS MANUAL page 20-21
2.2.2B(2): Indicate color and direction, designate the throw-in spot, sound the whistle to alert players that play is about to begin, place the ball at the thrower's disposal.

If you did all of that, and the teams go the wrong direction, then there is no reason to stop play until a foul or violation is committed, a held ball occurs, or a goal is scored.

If the proper mechanics were followed, as Texref has indicated in one of his posts, then simply stop play, score the goal for Team B, and allow Team A an end line throw-in.

If the proper mechanics were not followed, then the officials can be faulted for causing confusion and the teams going the wrong directions, so it would be proper to stop play, score the goal for Team A, turn the teams around, and take the ball to the other end of the court for an end line throw-in for Team B.

4 words: Always listen to Bob. ;)

One word: why?

Don't we have enough to worry about without worrying about a confused team or two? :D

If the proper mechanics were followed - and team A has been smart enough to build a 50 point lead - why should the official coach both teams to go the right direction? One thing I find hard to believe is that neither coach realized what was going on, got his teams attention and told his/her players to go the correct direction.

This is something I may discuss with my crews in the next couple of games, but the message will be to use he proper mechanics and leave the coaching to the coaches.

This is my point you can not just stop the game because it looks loke people are confused.
You have to have a dead ball to stop the play, then you have something to fall back on but you can not just stop the game you have no reason by rule to stop stop the game just because a team is going the wrong way.

Do You Miss Polio Also ???
 

Go back up into your attic, and stay there.

OK...now a word from the "thus-far-silent" partner in this debacle. But I wanted to first say how great all of your comments are and how much I enjoy having a place like this and people like you to help me hash this stuff out. I really appreciate all the input.

OK...as Texref stated above, this was a tournament setting...and the game was a "snoozer". All the more reason for us to stay alert and ready to act. But there were other factors that might have contributed to the way this played out. This was the 2nd day of a two-day tourney...and this game was fairly early on a Sat. morning. In addition, both teams had probably played two games the previous day. So to say that these boys were tired would be a gross understatement. And finally...the play in question unfolded very quickly. I remember the throw in to Team A's BC. But the way I remember it...Player A1 received the throw in...and all he took was a few dribbles before he pulled up. Before Texref or I could intervene the shot was away.

I guess my take on the situation is this...we knew that Team A was lining up at the wrong basket. It was not our intent to permit Team A to shoot at the wrong basket. I guess it's possible that my reaction time was slower as well...maybe I could have immediately blown the play dead when it was 1st apparent the "Hail Mary" pass was not forthcoming.

If this is the case...and my cat-like reflexes were impaired...then I'm certain it's Texref's fault. You see...Texref and I had worked a triple OT game the night before...even tho I had fully disclosed my "No OT" policy to him before the game. Guys and gals...you've got to learn to trust your partners. When they say "No overtime"...they mean NO OVERTIME...!!! But seriously, Kip...anytime, anywhere, any level...it was great working with you. And thanks again to this Forum...you guys and gals have helped me so much over the years. Keep up the great work...

[QUOTE=Snaqwells;554435][QUOTE=Texref;554434]I totally agree with the your comment about immediately blowing the play dead as soon as we knew they were going the wrong way. It was our intent to allow Team A the opportunity to run whatever "trick" play they wanted...even though it was surprising they might try it under these circumstances (Team A up by...well...a bunch). As Texref stated above, once we saw Team A's alignment (all 4 non-throwers in Team A's BC), I took up a position at mid-court near the table. From this position I could: 1.) Watch the non-throwers during the throw-in; and, 2.) Follow the players on any break to Team A's basket during the anticipated "Hail Mary" throw-in.

I remember still being puzzled by Team A's alignment as the throw-in was occurring. Then when the throw-in went into the BC...I remember trying to look for a different type of play. Maybe Team A was trying something different due to all the new players that had just come off the bench. Some of you may know the feeling...as an unusual or unexpected play unfolds. There's not much time to really THINK about what's happening...just that it feels really wrong.

But then Player A1 pulled up suddenly...from maybe 4 to 6 feet behind the 3-point line...and drained it. I think Texref was correct when he said that there was about 7:53 on the clock when we blew the play dead. If you estimate that the shooting motion and ball flight took up about 2 or 3 of the 7 seconds that ran off the clock...that would mean we only had about 4 or 5 seconds to figure out that Team A: 1.) Was not running the expected "Hail Mary" play; 2.) Did not have an alternate play in mind (to free up a player going toward their basket); and, 3.) Team A really was trying to go for the wrong bucket. I should have been the one to blow the play dead...

As I said previously, it 's possible that the early game might have caused my reflexes to be slower than normal and I might otherwise have been quick enough to blow the play in time. But I keep thinking about the night before...and the 3 OT's Texref and I had. Did I tell Texref...??? No, wait...I'm positive I told Texref about my no OT policy. Yes...I'm sure it's Texref's fault that this play unfolded the way it did. Whew...that was close...!!! I thought for a moment that maybe it was my fault...(JK). :p ;) :)