Automatic T?
 

Had this happen for the first time yesterday. Player B1 steals the ball from A1 but is called for a foul on the play. B1 slams the ball on the floor and it bounces about 15 feet in the air. No technical foul called. That was a first for me. I know there's no such thing as an Automatic T, but isn't that about as automatic as it gets? Never seen one not called in that situation. I asked the ref, "I thought that was an automatic T?", and just got a dirty look in return.

Boink!!!
 

Boink!!!

You're right, there is no automatic T. Could one have been called here? Sure sounds like it. But it wasn't. The one thing that is certain is that you asking for the call is not gonna make it happen.

Where does it say "automatic?"
 

No it is not.

First of all I long got away from using the term "automatic" when referencing what I will call. For one there is no such rule that says this is illegal in anyway. Secondly, if the player is frustrated with themselves then it might not be looked at by me the same as if they are upset with me, a partner or an opponent.

A similar thing happen in the National Championship game between Kansas and Memphis and a Memphis player slammed the ball after he missed about 4 FTs in a row. The officials properly understood the situation and did not give a T.

Peace

If that happened, then that really would have been something I've never seen before.

You say that's not automatic, but I bet you can't remember a time when you called a foul on a guy and he says, "no way", and slams the ball, and you did NOT give a T.

Yes I can. I had a kid do something similar about 2 or years ago. And I cannot remember the last time I have called a T for this action at all. I have had other officials call it with me on the game, but not by me. The kid bounced the ball and the ball got away from him and he was mad with his teammate. It made absolutely no sense to call a T for that when it was clear the action was an accident and he did not hurt anyone by his actions.

This idea of "automatic" was conjured up by officials, coaches and some fans somewhere. There is no where in the rulebook or casebook that says this must be called like a player ripping out their jersey. And even with the jersey a player better do it so obvious for it to be called by me. Not just something where a player pulls out the front part of his jersey and it is hardly noticed.

Peace

You didn't tell us the "no way" part the first time. You're right again, that's about as automatic as it gets.

Oh yeah? There was this one time it happened just like that but I didn't give the T because it was a close game, it was that team's star player and he already had four fouls and I didn't want to cost him a D1 scholarship.

OK, I made that up, but we all know there are some coaches, and a ton of parents, who think those are valid reasons not to give the T.

BTW - if there was an "automatic T", it would absolutely be for a player or coach getting in the official's face and yelling "F you!" (without the abbreviation) If there's anyone out there who can think of a legitimate circumstance in which you wouldn't call that, I'd sure like to hear it.

The "no way" part might have got them a technical, not necessarily the bouncing of the ball. And depending on the history of that kid during the game would have also helped to make that call.

Peace

You're talking about totally different situations. I'm talking about when the ball is slammed because he disagrees with a call you made. Do you really not call a T here?

:confused:

A10 on the end of the bench lights up a smoke.

That is one of the ways you get an automatic T from me.

The Kid has turrets?

I won't say "automatic," but....
 

I can’t imagine not calling the T in the situation described.

Coach, I am sorry but I have been officiating longer than you have from what I understand. I do not use the term "automatic" because it takes out thought or judgment and it takes away from the situation. A kid could do less than that and get a T under the right circumstances. I know that you have convinced yourself this is "automatic" but I stopped using that way of thinking because I have found situations are not always that simple. What if that was the first time the kid had an outburst? What if the ball only went 6 feet in the air? What if the player tried to catch the ball? What if the ball hit him in the head? I am sorry, but I do not officiate that way anymore. It gets you in more trouble than it is worth if you ask me.

Peace

I would say it is the combination of the two things that makes this almost impossible to overlook.

Depends on what he's smokin', and if he brought enough to share with the rest of the class. :cool:

Mark, I don’t care what you’ve been told by your state government; it’s not medicine.

I did not say you overlooked it. I said it might not warrant a T. There are other ways to get players and coaches to stop behavior without calling a T. I do it all the time and it works most of the time without anyone noticing there was a problem in the first place.

Peace

Why do you think I moved to Oregon 37 years ago? Far out.

Coach, firstly you've added variables to the story since your opening post. Secondly, if someone disagrees with your premise of an automatic T in this situation is it going to change your mind or are you then going debate them in hopes that they change their mind?

The fact that he added elements suggests a couple of things to me. Either it did not happen quite the way he said or there was a little hyperbole to the situation.

Remember the officials on the game passed on the action. They obviously did not think it was "automatic." ;)

Peace

Doesn’t mean a T wasn’t warranted and missed. There could be any number of reasons it was passed on; some valid and some just, well, pusillanimous.

If a kid says "No way" and slams the ball on the floor so that it bounces 15 feet high, it warrants a T. I think people would notice this problem.

That is why I said the officials on the game passed for a reason. We might ultimately disagree with their reasoning or judgment, but we do not officiate behind a computer screen either.

Peace

And that will never heal if you pick at it.

I do not know about you, but I do not sit around the court with a measuring tape to know if the ball went 15 feet (which is hyperbole on some level) or 8 feet.

In the NCAA Finals, the ball went higher than 10 feet if you judge the ball going over the rim and nothing was called. And the officials were commended by many officiating observers for understanding the situation.

Also I would like to talk to the officials to know if they heard or did not hear the kid said. Once again, there is a reason they passed on a T and I frankly do not like taking the words of only one person that may or may not have been in a position to see or understand what the officials were doing or what they were not doing. And that is most of all why I like to stay away from the "automatic T" stuff.

Peace

2 scenarios:

(a) Kid gets called for a foul, he's obviously unhappy with the call, slams ball down, it bounces 15 feet high, he walks away. This earns a T from me.

(b) Close game, kid gets called for a foul, he knows he committed a dumb foul, he says "C'mon Smith!" (which is his name), he slams the ball down harder than he means to, he gets this "uh oh" look on his face, retrieves the ball and hands it to me. Probably no T here from me.

I suspect that (a) happens far more often than (b), but I agree with the general principle that technical fouls are almost never "automatic" but sometimes obvious and easy to call.

Assuming that it happened just as the OP said, including the height of the bounce, I'm almost certain to have a T. It's just business. If another official chooses to handle it differently during his game, fair enough.

Coach Bill, there's no way we can pass judgment on why the officials in your game didn't T the kid for this. Without even trying I can rattle off half a dozen reasons why they might not have called it. Not the least of which is that they didn't see the situation the same way you did.

A rather spirited "negotiation" with the very attractive female head coach about how she intends to pay for her foul insurance? ;)

I Liked The Player Smoking Post Too ...
 

This sounds a lot like like a common sense. How dare you bring common sense into a discussion about NFHS basketball rules.

Four Fouls On Star Player, I Better Be Sure On Next One, Just For Him, Not The Others
 

Coaches. Parents. You forgot officials.

Happened...
 

The above situation happen once to me (player slamming and commenting on my call). Only reason he didn't get a T is that I dropped the whistle out of my mouth and couldn't find the stupid thing. It had flopped over my shoulder and after the 5 seconds it took me to find it, the time for the T had passed......lucky punk.

If the ball comes back down and hits the floor it is an automatic TF, :D.
Don't you just love the Theory of Gravity, :D.

MTD, Sr.

That is what I was trying to explain is that it was (a) in my case, and I've always seen a T called in that situation. But, there may have been mitigating circumstances that I was not privy to. I didn't push it. Made my comment, got my dirty look, and moved on.

If only I could learn to do this with my wife....

Well you did not always see a T, because it did not happen in this case. ;)

Peace

I'm getting in on this late, but I agree with everyone here that there is no such thing as an "automatic" call. Sure, the OP sounds like something that would warrant a T from most of us, but we weren't on the game. It sounds like you did the right thing in letting it go after one comment. Hopefully you also used it as an example to teach your players that it was an inappropriate action on the floor.

The post reminded me of a lower level coach I used to love working with. I bet he saved his players 5 or more technicals in the few years I worked his teams. His players would begin to do something unsporting, complaining or the like, and before I could get the whislte in my mouth, he'd be yelling at them and have a sub at the bench. If the coach is taking care of it, especially at the lower levels, I'm happy to let them.

BYU v UW football
 

Official threw a flag on UW player for tossing a ball behind his head and up into the air. The end result, UW missed the 35 yd PAT and the official was killed by ESPN. The PAC 10 assignor had to come out and say it was AUTOMATIC.

Automatic calls are the bane of the game. They are a result of fanboys, coaches, and media who video every play and break them down. Then they get out their rulebooks and make interpretations for the officials about the calls that were or were not made. The result is due to pressure we are asked to call certain AUTOMATICs that are handed out during the season or in the next season.

It is required that the context of the game be considered when calling a game.

More and more we are being asked to call the game in black and white, when basketball is more gray. The use of automatics will result in a game that is played at the FT line. Its bad enough that the bigs are being taken out of the game and that the emphasis is on guard play.

Please people, let common sense prevail, don't take the spontaneity of the game away from this great game.

Two thoughts on that call. First the call at UW was an easy call for the officials to make. Football rules prohibit throwing the ball high in the air it went high in the air.
Second, ESPN was dishonest in their coverage of the play. For the day of the game they used a tight angle shot to make it look like he just tossed the ball behind him. That should be the first thing discussed when you mention ESPN attacking a call that was clearly right.

If a player steps out of bounds, that's an automatic call. Game situation doesn't enter in. If a player calls a timeout with none left, be he in Michigan Gold or not it's a technical. If a player tells you that you're lying to him loud enough for the crowd to hear, you get to practice your Technical mechanics. I take no position on the ongoing thread, but your comments could easily lead someone to think that they should lay off a call late in the game even when the rules call for it.
________
The Cliff Condos Pattaya

To be fair, that play was an obvious violation of the rules. And there are specific rules in place to make this very specific action illegal in a NCAA Football game. And the NCAA used video to show what constituted a foul. The officials were not only applying the rule, they were applying the philosophy.

Bouncing the ball to my knowledge has never been endorsed as a Technical foul either by rules or interpretation that I have ever seen. All there is are some official's personal standards that have been passed on. This is the very reason I suggested earlier that is the action more egregious if the action takes place based on how high the ball goes.

Peace

Back to Coach Bills concerns: I am not sure why you would be concerned with the event anyways. This seemed like a situation between your opponent and the ref. Rather than worrying about this situation, worry about your team getting better and use the event as a learning situation for what you don't want to see from your squad.

Wasn't too concerned. Like I said, I didn't make a big deal of it. Just thought it was unusual. I've been coaching a long time, and it's been a T every time, except this one.

And, how was this a learning situation?

This is the reason these usually need to be called. From how I read it, I would have called it. It's hard for Coach Bill to teach his kids there are consequences for mouthing off to the refs (or in this case, showing them up) when it's done by the opponents without consequence.

If Coach Bill felt strongly enough about it he should tell his team that the outburst from the other teams player was unacceptable and that he never want's to see that type of reaction from his players.
Even though the ref didn't give the tech, doesn't make the kids actions acceptable.