Full or 30
 

NFHS

Does anyone have a good way of remembering how many 60 and 30 second time outs each team has remaining?

Sometimes after a coach requests a time and I grant it, I'll ask if he wants a full or 30 second time out when he only has full time outs left. It would be nice to already know that without asking the coach or scorer.

Well, you shouldn't use elastics around your fingers or anything. I think you just have to work it into your game, much like working remembering the arrow into your game. Maybe start with 30s TOs first -you know - baby steps.

I don't keep track at all. When I report to the table, I expect the scorer to tell me if the team is "out" of the type requested. Then I tell the coach, for instance, that it's not a 30 but a 60 since that's all he has left. Prior to the game, I tell the scorer only to tell us when a team has used it's final TO, not how many remain since I don't care.

While we're on the subject, a similar situation exists with personal foul counts. I tell the scorer absolutely not to tell me or my partner how many personal fouls a player has unless we just called the fifth. I'm sure you can realize the "indirect" benefits of this policy.

Wow.........I thought this thread was directed at me!!!:D

LOL!!!!

It is funny because I was thinking the same exact thing. I had to look again to make sure I was not reading the wrong title.

Peace

I completely agree. This is the table's responsibility. You just report what you are told and if a team is out one or the other, the table should tell you. We are not football officials that can write down each request for a timeout.

Peace

me, three

"I only have 30's left. You idiot" ...
 

On our local board, we're taught to ask, and report, 60 or 30, not full or 30.

Good question. I only want the table to tell me when a team has used up all of their timeouts, so that I can notify the coach that he has no time outs left. However, I can see your point. Several times since the two types of time outs were introduced, I've made a call that the coach may have disagreed with, he asks for a timeout without specifying which type, I'll ask, "60 or 30?" (sometimes I'll forget and ask, "Full or 30?"), and he'll take this an an opportunity to sarcastically say, "I only have 30's left" (implying, "You idiot"). It's times like those that I wish I had known more information.

Happy Thanksgiving.

I tell the coaches in pre-game, let us see a 30 signal, or you will get a full.
That's always been good enough up to now.

Here is what I ask when I am part of a crew:

2-man crew: Umpire keeps track of how many 30s the home team has used; Referee does the same for the visiting team. They can then share that info as needed. "Hey partner, white is now out of 30s."

3-man crew: U1 keeps track of the 30s for the home team; U2 tracks the 30s for the visitor; Referee tracks the fulls for both teams.

What good does this do?

It makes the officials look good in the area of game management and helps avoid any unnecessary problems by having to communicate with an unhappy coach. See posts #1 and #8.

Also helps with the referee's "definite knowledge" should there be a bookkeeping mistake regarding the number of time-outs used.

If a coach asks for a 30 and has only a full, you give him the full. It's a
non-issue. If there is a bookkeeping mistake, exactly how do you proceed with this definite knowledge?

No, unless I am aware that he is out of 30s, I will signal for a 30, tell my partners that it is a 30, then head to the table and report a 30. When I learn that he is out of 30s, I now have to tell the coach of the non-calling team, who likely watched me report or perhaps even asked me on my way to the table what type of TO was taken and then dutifully kept his team standing, that it is a full and his team can sit down. Then I need to inform the coach of the calling team that he has to take a full because he already used his 30s, and finally I have to tell my partners who are standing in the wrong locations to move. It is just better to know in advance and not have to go through all of this and look like a fool.

Example A:
Table has each team recorded as using one 30 and two fulls. Coach B disagrees. I'm the R. My parters are Jack and Bob. I ask Jack how many 30s Team B has taken. He says zero. I ask Bob how many 30s Team A has taken. He says both of them. I now know the problem. The bookkeeper wrote down one of the 30s on the wrong side. I fix it and avoid having to write a report to the state office for all of the nastiness that would have occurred had the visiting team gotten screwed out of a time-out.

In the 4th qtr, when a time out is being used, either my partner or I will check on time-outs remaining at the table and inform each other and after the 2nd horn and before the ball is put in play, we will advise the coaches. We don't do this for EVERY time out in the 4th qtr...usually just once.

If we go into OT, I have my partner inform the coaches they have one additional TO, because it wasn't MY fault.:D

A few years ago I had worked into my game to recall where on the court the ball was when TOs were requested, and for what reason.

When coaches claim "I still have a full TO left", my P and I could reply, "you took one here, here and here for this, that, and the other thing." The look on the coaches' faces were priceless. I've lost this skill now, though, since I have cut back on how many games I do because of football taking priority.

Some people can't remember what they had for breakfast, while others have a very good memory. If you have the ability, why not use it? But only if the more important parts of your game are already in tune.

As officials, we are responsible for recognizing and awarding legitimate time out requests. The official scorer keeps up with the "how many" and, by rule, advises an official when a team has used its last timeout so that the official, by rule, can advise the head coach that the team has no timeouts remaining.

It's the same way with fouls. We call them, the scorer records them and keeps the count. When a participant uses up all they've got, the scorer tells us and then we tell the head coach and the disqualified participant.

Now, we should always be able to answer a coach's "do I have any timeouts left?" with either "yes" or "no." But the "how many are left" question is not one we need to be answering. Teams have stats people, assistant coaches, etc. who can record/check/recheck/verify these issues with the table.

And what I've noticed is that officials who give attention to keeping up with timeouts often offer the information to coaches without ever being asked!

The big problem happens when we as officials assume responsibility for an area of the game that is really someone else's responsibility. And here is where the water hits the wheel: What if you give the coach incorrect information?

It's neither rude nor unprofessional to respond to the "how many timeouts do I have left?" question with, "Coach, I'm not sure about that. You'll have to check with the scorer's table for that information."

Just my 2 cents.

I've Fallen, And My Keys Aren't Down Here ...
 

Where are my keys?

Or Is It "E Pluribus Unum" ???
 

"Que Sera Sera". Is that the right answer?

Rings On My Fingers, And Bells On My Toes ...
 

Great post from a member with only about 100 posts. I agree with you completely. It's not our job to remember, and share, this information, especially if we share incorrect information. I do agree somewhat with previous posters that knowledge of such information would help if a scorebook error came up, but I believe that the disadvantages of remembering, and sharing, this knowledge, slightly outweighs the advantages.

There are some great officials who have a philosophy that they should be aware when a star player has picked up their fourth foul, and that this may impact a future "gray area" foul call. Sorry. I wouldn't be able to sleep that night if I used such information to "color" my later call.

My local board has been criticized by some Forum members, including me, for requiring us to keep switching an extra whistle from pocket, to pocket, to help insure that the possession arrow is pointing in the correct direction. I certainly understood the need to do this back in 1985, when we first started using the arrow, instead of jump balls, there were many arrow mistakes back then, but not now in 2008.

We as officials need to keep our eye on the scoreboard, and use our memory, to know when we've reached the seventh, or tenth, team foul, for the simple reason to avoid the dreaded correctable error. That's all I want to keep track of. I have a lot of more important things to be aware of in the game, like primary coverage areas, block/charge, advantage/disadvantage, displacement, proper administration of throwins, and free throws, etc. Maybe it's because I'm getting old, but that all my 55 year old brain can handle.

Rusty Gilbert: "Here is where the water hits the wheel"? Is this a Southern idiom? I've never heard it before. And Connecticut used to have hundreds of mills.

I Know It's What I Told You, But It's Still A Technical Foul Coach ...
 

Be careful. I don't believe that he's allowed to leave the coaching box to do this.

Have you ever kept the arrow in your head?

If you've ever had an incorrect arrow, how do you resolve it?

We Mostly Use Two Person Crews ...
 

For good, or bad, after racking our brains, checking the scorebook (some scorers write down alternating possessions, others don't), and not being able to decide, we go with two, out of three (extra whistle in pocket, extra whistle in pocket, possession arrow at table). Really.

And when the coach continues to question, I simply tell him, "Sorry coach. We did the best we could. But I promise that you'll get two, out of the next three, alternating possessions."

I have to ask. Has this ever worked? If I was a coach, I'd view this as extremely condescending and rude; and would be pi$sed off even more. Not that I worry about making coaches angry when I make my calls, but I see no reason to add fuel to the fire when engaging them.

Don't Try This At Home ...
 

Good point. I may have done a disservice to rookie officials. I should have added this should only be used in the right place, at the right time, at the right level, and with the right coach. I've only used this a few times, I believe only once at the high school level, always with success. Maybe I've been lucky. In all cases, the coach knew that we exhausted all possibilities to make the correct call, that the fault may have been with his own scorekeeper, that he wasn't pissed off, but was only in a "questioning mode", that it was stated in a humorous manner with a smile on my face, not a "smart alec" manner, and finally, that I had built up some good rapport with that coach over time, that is, past seasons, as well as no previous problems in this particular game.

Rookies. Don't try this at your local gym. It could be hazardous. This is only for seasoned veterans, and only under some rare circumstances. "We're what you call, 'experts'".

You forgot "on a closed track."

Do Cars Still Have Glove Compartments, Does Anyone Still Put Gloves In There ???
 

If I drove my car like I see cars being driven on all those commercials, my glove compartment would be overflowing with traffic tickets.

I don't keep the arrow in my head, but I do keep up with it using a small, flesh covered rubber band on my finger as an aid to making a quick directional declaration when a "held ball" situation develops.

We have, by rule, a visible indicator (the arrow) on the scorer's table that communicates the direction. As officials, we have responsibility to determine that the arrow is correctly set at the start of the game, and then that it is correctly changed at the appropriate times. However, it is the official scorer who is charged with keeping track of these changes (quarter/time/team).

There are case book situations that speak to incorrect administration of possession arrow throw ins.

Bottom line, when an official mistakenly allows an A-P throw-in to be completed by the wrong team, you can't "take it back and have a do-over." The team that should have had the A-P throw-in initially is still entitled to the next A-P throw-in opportunity.


A couple of other responses to responses:
When I wrote, "Coach, I'm not sure about that. You'll have to check with the scorer's table for that information," BillyMac said, "Be careful. I don't believe that he's allowed to leave the coaching box to do this."

Somebody for that team is (or should be) able to verify accurate information from the official scorer. If the head coach thinks it is incorrect, the head coach can then go to the table to request a timeout "in order to prevent or rectify" the scorer's mistake, during which time out the officials will determine whether or not there was a mistake and, if so, determine whether it can be prevented or rectified. If there was a mistake and it was prevented/rectified, then the team is not charged a timeout.


BillyMac also asked about the phrase "where the water hits the wheel." I'm not sure of its origin, but the phrase is often used to refer to the point at where the theoretical and the practical meet.
__________________

Thought I'd Throw A Little Shakespeare In There, Just To Class Things Up A Little ...
 

Get ready for the, "Slings and arrows of outrageous" Forum members. They have been giving me the business for years for using this mechanic, but I'm only doing what my evaluators want me to do, and even if I disagree with this mechanic, "When in Rome ..."

Why would you bother to keep up? That's what the table is for?

You mean, like this?

http://www.designlessbetter.com/blog...martin_250.jpg

I use a whole salami. Boy, do I get some strange stares from female coaches. And there was this one male coach once, er, never mind. :eek:

Not that there's anything wrong with that. :rolleyes:

Bravo ...
 

Mark Padgett: With your last two posts, you've outdone yourself. I actually laughed out loud, and startled my cat, Callie, who was perched in her usual place in front of my computer monitor.

I agree. We often say "Trust your crew," and whether they are the crew you would have selected or not, the people at the table are still part of the crew.

Good meeting you at IACO JR!

I actually froze for a second and said now what??

Were taught that its good game management to know. Its not the most important thing, but it does help.

It's like winning the lottery, one in 10,000,000. :D He was overdue. I laughed too.