count the basket or not
 

team A has a sob at half court with 4 seconds on the clock, i administer the ball to player out of bounds and she throws the ball in play and i start a silent count to myself. when i get to 4 seconds , iam waiting for the horn and no horn, i get to 6 sec , shot goes up and the horn goes off at my count of 7sec. and the shot goes in. coach of the opposing team is vey upset that the clock was not started properly. what authority does the official have on counting the shot or on the clock at that point.... this is what i did in that game.... we went over to the table and spoke to the clock operator and he said the he in fact made an error and started the clock late. my partner then erased the two points and ended the quarter. yes or no

5-10-2

5.10.2 Situation

I've done this. I always count in this situation, and the official can blow the whistle with definite knowledge to end the quarter.

Count to four, blow the whistle and announce the quarter has ended.

Much easier your way than taking the points off the board.

If the clock doesn't show 1/10s of seconds, and idicates 0:04, then there is AT LEAST 4 seconds left (could be up to 4.9). So, you should count to 5.

why not check the clock as soon as the ball is thrown in? It is just a quick peek and if it doesn't start i think you still have to let the play finish out. Then you have your own knowledge, not just the operator, who might be too egotistical to say he/she started too late. If there is a PA announcer you tell him/her to announce that the clock had started late and the officials have ruled the basket no good. Snaqwells way might be easier but he is killing the play with time on the clock, even though in your head you know the time has actually passed.

Although i have done what snaqs has done in AAU and rec games, but only in sitches where the outcome is not affected.

+1

I thought I remembered something similar happening to me a while ago. Here's what I posted in this thread -- http://forum.officiating.com/basketb...-aau-year.html -- back in May of '07:

I did it in a varsity boys game, end of first quarter. My partner, our area director and representative for the state's IAABO, who was placed on my game specifically to evaluate me, said it showed great game awareness. I'd do it again.

I'm still not sure what you would have done differently than I did.

The coach was at half court! :eek:

Seriously, in a situation like this, before you put the ball in play, turn to the table and tell the clock operator to start the clock on your hand drop. Then, also take a quick peek at the clock to make sure it starts properly.

I agree I think it shows great awareness but I'm not going to kill play in the 1st 2nd 3rd or at the end of the 4th when it can decide the outcome if there is time remaining on the clock whether it be erroneous or not.

I'm going to let everything play out till the 00:0 hit or there is some break in the action and then I'm going to gather my crew, reconstruct the play and decide whether the basket should count or not.

I don't want to make a decision like that when 3 heads (hopefully my partners were as aware as I was) are better than 1.

I'm not saying I'm totally against what you did but I would prefer to do it this way.

Fair enough, but if I'm sure there are only 5 seconds left, and I count to 6, I don't need the other two heads any more than you do. My way, you don't have to worry about erasing a made basket.

clock issues
 

I think that you handled well. I learned the lesson many years ago in the championship game of an AAU tournament. All kinds of D1 coaches in the gym and D1 referees evaluating the game during a ref camp.

5 seconds to go, long before we thought of putting tenths on the board. Team A has throw in and down 1 point from halfcourt. Ball is thrown into to A2 at top of key. A1, the throw in person gets a screen and cuts to bucket for another screen and pops out to the elbow. She buries the shot.

I look at clock from opposite and Trail position. Clock is dead. I blow whistle. We tell teams to go to benches, the three of us meet in center court. We talk for a few seconds and two D1 guys enter the huddle. Standard question, "What do you guys have?" None of us knew how long. They said first lesson, always count the last 5 seconds of every quarter. If none of us knew, the next thing was to use our team mates at the table. The 5 of us went to table. The clock man, paid employee of tournament, said the clock went dead when the clock went to zero. Shooter had just received the pass. We asked him if he had started the clock on time. He said yes. How confident was he that the clock was at zero. He said 100%. The D1 guys said wipe it off. We called coaches together and told them the outcome. One was happy, one was mad.

The post game conference was:

Always count last 5 seconds.
Always have off official from throw in see that the clock starts.
If you have no horn and you are 110% sure the time is out, blow whistle.
Always use all of your resources in the gym, different levels have different resources.

I have lived by this ever since. In 15 years since that date, I have had to use it less than a dozen times, but I have always counted.

In that case, I hope that you were the Referee because if you weren't, then you do need at least one other head according to the rule. ;)

Which part? Declaring the quarter over, or wiping the basket?
That's why I just end it now, then there's no official disagreeing with me for wiping the basket. :)

The part about you deciding to correct an obvious timing mistake.

The rule specifies that is the job of the REFEREE.

Doh! I think we've had this discussion before. :)

I didn't read the last half of 2-5-5.

FWIW, I wasn't the R, but the R was cool with it; which I suppose amounts to tacit approval. :)

It's also in 5-10-1 and 5-10-2.

FWIW, I would handle the action in the same manner as you. :) I would start a visible count and when I reach what should be the end of the quarter--sound the whistle.

The difference would be that I would then go straight to the R and tell him that the clock didn't start so I counted it out and that he needs to go over to the table, have a brief word about what just happened, and declare the quarter over.

perception plays a big role in this
 

Both Snaqs and Nevada have Valid points
We always have the official responsible for the clock count with 5 seconds or less. The all officials are responsible to make sure the clock starts properly on all plays.
and as Nevada says this play looks much better if you do not have to take the points off the board.

This is were the game managment part of officiating comes in if you are constantly aware of clock, shot clock, and score. you can make these adjustments or they are not surprises when they pop up and you can dela with them w/o major malfunctions occuring.

In a situation such as this a reation from the official responsible for the last second shot before the buzzer would be ideal. The book calls for definate knowledge and if you react after the buzzer it is a harder sell than if one of you is waving of time when it should happen not after a 2 minute conference with no monitor to check.

Great discussion all. I believe it must be noted that although it's not defined (that I know of) by rule/manual when the clock is under 5 seconds, the "definitive" count should be done visually.

In one of the camps I have been, the clinician noted a instance of this happening in a college game. Needless to say, he didn't have a visual count and the supervisor of officials was not to thrilled about using an "invisible count" as definitive information. He referenced that the team went back looked at the tape, made their determination of how much time should have came off the clock before the shot, then forwarded it to the league. The supervisor told him that it would have been much more defensible if he would have just had a visual count (even if it was wrong). Just thought I would share the story

-Josh

I have never read about or been told - heard anyone told - or heard anyone talk about a visual count durring any NCAA camp or meeting or pregame -with less than five seconds on a clock.

there is a signal you can use for "Lock down" late in a game,
but a visual count would be a disaster. for many reasons, at the upper levels there is the monitor to use in most games for this purpose, nobody counts as the same pace. Do the drill with your eyes closed most people count to 10 in about 6 seconds. if the clock shows four and they see you count to five to be safe and you count the shot what would happen?

there are two visual there visual counts that come to mind for for an official:
Men 10 seconds backcourt
both five seconds Inbound
both five seconds closely guarded Men dribbline Men and women held ball M 6ft w 3ft

Count to 5 and kill the game with a whistle - easier to explain that clock not started rather than cancel a basket on a 'after whistle' play.

I would always give an extra second on a display that does not display 0.1 seconds; in fact I would probably give it anyway just to make sure :rolleyes:, sometimes I may count a little quick...

When I was [more of] a newbie, an experienced guy said that we are human and make mistakes and so do the table officials on occasion - we are a team and have to work together; to this end he always counted anything less than 8' in a quarter just to be safe, also useful if equipment is a little 'interesting' for the home team.

It is only the same as a count for the 8 seconds and then having the display show '20' after you blow the whistle, the display is to help but the referee's are responsible and carry the can if it is wrong.

My 2 pence worth anyway (or is that 3 cents now?)

Not necessarily. "4" on the clock could be 4.0-4.9 or it could be 3.1-4.0. Some round up, some round down.

If the horn immediately sounds when the clock switches to 0 (which I find more common), it will be the latter...3.1-4.0.

Either way I'd probably count an extra second just in case I accidentally counted too fast.

How can the clock be from 3-4.9? thats a screwy clock

Which clocks?

I called NEVCO and asked about their clock operation. NEVCO clocks are popular in my area and work in the way that bob j describes, according to the engineer that I spoke to.

Either way, you tell can how the game clock operates by observing the change, or lack or change, immeidately after you switch the running of the clock to "on".

If the clock changes to 7:59 immediately, then there is really 7:59.9, 7:59.8, 7:59.7, 7:59.6 and so on, until the real time hits 7:58.9, at which point the clock will then read 7:58.

If the clock does not change to 7:59 immediately, then it will read 8:00 until the actual time is 7:59.0 at which time it will change to 7:59.

Surely (yes, Padgett, I am calling you Shirley), any official can tell the difference between 0.1s and 1.0s when it comes to the clock changing from 8:00 to 7:59.

Spring Ahead, Fall Back ...
 

Good one. One of my favorite movie quotes.

I have no idea...but the topic (different implementations of clocks) has been discussed here on more than one occassion.
I'm sure they do, but they may not be representative of all or even most clocks.That method will certainly work....just as well as watching the pregame clock count down to 0 and seeing if the horn sounds simultaneous with the appearance of 0. Your method, however, depends on knowing when the scorer flipped the switch...unless you're going to go over to the clock to test it yourself.

My method also affords me of doing to test anytime pre-game and I can start on any value immediately after a reset, without the need for waiting for someone else's timeline, until zeroes to appear and the horn to unnecessarily sound.

I know you're a curious guy, and what else is there to do when you're at a game 30-minutes prior to tip-off? You should see the look on coaches' faces when they try to pull a fast on me and I rebuke them because I know stuff. It's pretty funny.

I make it a point to know many things - including where the closest restrooms are at every venue!