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Scorer changes team member, player, number in scorebook ???
Penalized when they occur, after ten minute time limit; A maximum of one technical foul per team regardless of the number of infractions, 3a, 3b, 3c; The infraction occurs when the scorer is advised to add to or change the scorebook; The foul must be charged when it occurs and enforced when the ball next becomes live; Once the ball has become live, it is too late to penalize: A team shall not require the scorer to change a team member, or player, number in the scorebook (with exception), after the ten minute time limit; Team technical foul; If there is no request for change, or if a team member does not become a player, thus avoiding the change, there is no penalty.
What if said player participates, unbeknown to an official, and is then substituted for, and is sitting on the bench? It seems too late to penalize. Am I correct? Can it be penalized the next time the player enters the game, before the ball becomes live? |
Hmmmmmmmmm
once they are in the game and the ball is live they are legal and can not be penalized -
how could you now say that they are not legal after that? |
If the scorer makes the change without telling you, it's too late once the ball becomes live; whether or not the player is still in the game.
If they change the book again (for a different player, for example), then you penalize. I'm adding this to my scorer pregame talk this year. |
I disagree with both responses so far.
OH is applying an inappropriate rule. The proper rule to apply is the one that deals with changing the scorebook. It has nothing to do with the legality of the player. As for Snaq's response, I cannot permit a scorer to allow a team to get away with a clear infraction, if I have knowledge of the offense. I'm penalizing this one as soon as I learn about it. |
I'm with Nevada on this one. "Penalized when they occur" has no expiration time that I'm aware of. When the official becomes aware, that's when it occurred, as far as he is concerned.
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"Too late to penalize" ???
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ref;550791: I'm not really disagreeing, or agreeing, with you. I just want these penalties to be less confusing for me, and would like to keep the debate going until I get some clarity. Thanks for the response. |
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It is clear to me that the above statement assumes that the officials are notified of the infraction at the proper time. When that aspect is removed, I'm not convinced that it is still binding. Turning to 2-3 seems appropriate in this case. |
Are These Penalties Confusing, Or Is It Just Me ???
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In my original post, the officials were not notified at the proper time (What if said player participates, unbeknown to an official, and is then substituted for, and is sitting on the bench?). So what your saying is that 2-3, or intent and purpose, trump, "The foul must be charged when it occurs and enforced when the ball next becomes live. Once the ball has become live, it is too late to penalize". I would like some more clarification. |
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Unless you think that statement "clearly" refers to a situation when the officials are told but choose to ignore it only to want to penalize it later. |
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Glad to be a part of this forum....you guys are really helping me with the game...thanks, Bishopcolle |
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Even if you don't always agree with me in the future. :D |
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"when they occur" means just that, not when the officials become aware of it. You penalize the change in the book at the time the book is changed. You can't go back and penalize it if you discover it later. If so, the rule would have said "when discovered" like 2e. Now, if I've got a scorer who's added a name without informing the ref and I feel it was done to expressly benefit his/her team, I just might call a team T for the unsportsmanlike behavior of the scorer....but not for the change itself. |
Be Back Soon ...
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In the OP, I think it would be a "T" when discovered -
The situation I had last year, involved the home scorer (team A) forgetting to put a name of team b in the book. The scorer even went as far as to show me the card she was given prior to game that had the players name on it.... |
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Once the ball has become live, it is too late to penalize.
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Add name to the team list or change a team member’s number in scorebook
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Updated Post ...
Penalized when they occur, after ten minute time limit. The infraction occurs when the scorer is advised to add to or change the scorebook. The foul must be charged when it occurs and enforced when the ball next becomes live. Once the ball has become live, it is too late to penalize. A maximum of one technical foul per team regardless of the number of infractions for 2a, 3a, 3b, 3c, 4a:
a) A team shall not add a name to the team member list after the ten minute time limit. Team technical foul. When such a player legally enters the court, the player’s name, and number, must be entered into the scorebook. b) A team shall not require the scorer to change a team member, or player, number in the scorebook (with exception), after the ten minute time limit. Team technical foul. If there is no request for change, or if a team member does not become a player, thus avoiding the change, there is no penalty. c) A team shall not require a player to change to a number in the scorebook after the ten minute time limit. Team technical foul. A maximum of one team technical foul is charged regardless of the number of players, and substitutes, not wearing the number indicated in the scorebook. Each player must wear the number indicated in the scorebook, or change the scorebook number to that which the player is wearing. Any additional substitutes who become players and require the changing of the number indicated for them in the scorebook will not result in a penalty as the one maximum technical has already been charged to the team for this administrative infraction. If there is no request for change, or if the team member does not become a player, thus avoiding the change, there is no penalty. |
Just thought I would share this little extra nugget--since it isnt in the rules.
If you have to change a number in the book due to jersey replacement from blood, then that is done without penalty (though the rules do not note this exception) Here is the case play: Case Book 3.3.7 SITUATION A: “B1 is directed to leave the game because of excessive blood on his/her uniform shirt. Team B’s manager has failed to pack any extra shirts. (a) The coach asks one of the substitutes to give his/her shirt to B1; or (b) Team A is able to find a shirt which B1 can wear even though it is not exactly the same color or style of the Team B shirts. The shirt will however, clearly identify B1 as a member of Team B and will not be confusing to either team or the officials. RULING: Acceptable procedure in both (a) and (b). In both situations the scorer will make necessary changes in the scorebook without penalty. COMMENT: The spirit and intent of the rule is to do everything possible to allow the player to use a different shirt and return without penalty. However, identical numbers shall not be allowed on the same team.” I had this come up last Friday. Girl has excessive blood and is actively bleeding. I send her to the bench, replacement player shoots her freethrows. She goes to the locker room and gets a different jersey with a new number (30 instead of 24). A few minutes later she comes in during freethrows by the other team. When I bring her in (I'm trail) I go to the scorer and have them change it in the book without penalty. I briefly confer with my partner who agrees with me that we arent penalizing for a changed jersey (despite being in agreement that the rule seems to require it). So I looked and found this case play when I got him from the game to see if we were right or wrong. Looks like we did it right! :) Since we are discussing number changes in the book, I thought I would offer this little known exception to the rule that common sense tells us but the rules on their face forget to account for. :) |
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