Pregame Dunks
 

Fifteen minutes prior to the game two team members of team A dunk with both the coach and official as witnesses. When coach submits his squad list, he deliberately omits the names of the violators. Official assesses a technical foul for each act of dunking as team fouls and charges the coach with two indirect technical fouls. This ruling is correct.*


We kicked this question around last year, and failed to reach an agreement on the correct answer. Well, the question was on our study guide again, and appeared on the test this time. Our discussion at our meeting last week gave me a different perspective on this question. Last year here the question seemed to center around whether the coach could declare by omission: "These guys are not team members." Some high profile, knowledgeable, forum members said that he could.

Well, as we read the question again, we find that they are team members. It's a given. Is the point of the question how the technical fouls should be charged? If these guys names are not in the book, the fouls obviously cannot be charged to them as individual players. Therefore they are charged only as team fouls, and also as indirects to the head coach. I put true for the question, but with a limited amount of confidence. The only other alternative I see is that the official says these guys must appear in the book, whether the coach likes it or not. I see no rule which gives an official the authority to do this, with the exception of the ever-present 2-3.

Were the two offenders in uniform and doing warm-ups with the rest of the team? If so - I believe I would rule them to be team members. If not they should not have been in uniform nor allowed (by coaches/officials) to warm-up with the rest of the team. I think I'd tell the coach if he hadn't submitted his entire roster by the 10 min mark I'd also have to hit him with a T for adding them later.

This situation is most likely to occur in a JV game; for a variety of reasons. That said, it's not uncommon to see a few varsity players warming up with the JV kids, especially on road games with smaller schools.

I agree about the JV but in our area if those players are on varsity they are also on JV and playing a couple quarters each way. Still team members. Also, if that's the case the uniforms would be different - at least in my area.

Not always the case, though. I've seen a lot of kids warm up with the JV, then they don't show up at all during the game, not even on the bench. And while the uniforms may or may not be different, you might not know if they've all got the same warmup suit on.

So is it true or false?

I don't think there's an official answer yet.

definition?
 

ART. 4 . . . A team member is a member of bench personnel who is in uniform and is eligible to become a player.

I would say that this definition would be helpful in your determination of how to proceed.

But wouldn't a good working definition of "eligible to become a player" basically be is on the roster the coach submits before the 10 minute mark? I don't see how you could determine this eligibility in any other way.

What's so hard about this? Use some common sense here guys........

Just because he's not in the book does not mean that he's ineligble to play. It will just cost him when/if the coach decides to enter him into the game.

Assess the Technicals, count them as Team Fouls, and the indirects on the coach. If they try to enter the offenders into the game, have the scorer update the book to include the personal fouls that they have accumulated.

After the game, notify your assignor, the school's AD and/or principal, and the state association of the coach's actions.

They'll deal with it.

I'm 95% certain that if this question were posed to the NFHS, they'd say, "It is not the intent of the rule to allow the coach to circumvent the penalty in this way. Enforce the T's, including the indirects on the coach."

Don't forget to assess the team T for adding the players to the book. ;)

That's correct....

If the coach proposes this when everything first happens, advise him that IF the players are needed during the game, there will be an additional penalty for adding them to the book. He might just change his mind.

Then again.... maybe he won't....

Player B12 is dressed and warming up with the team B, dunks the ball at the 12 minute mark, and is noticed by the officials.
Player B12 is suspended from participation in this contest for an ejection in the previous game and is therfore not elegible to participate in this contest?


or

Player A11 plays for the JV and Varsity. Is dressed and warming up A11 dunks the ball at the 12 minute mark, and is noticed by the officials.
At the 11 minute mark the JV coach informs the Varsity coach that A11 played too many quarters per state rules and is inelegible to participate in this contest?

Whack him.

Report the proceeding to the proper administrative body/bodies.

My comment was aimed at what it means to us to determine eligibility. And I'm not arguing against asdf's suggestion, which is the most rational way to handle this that I recall being discussed.

When wrangling over the definition of team member, how do the rules define "eligible to become a player"? They don't. IMO, the only rules-based context we have for judging whether a kid in uniform is eligible to become a player is whether or not he is listed on the roster. If he's listed, he's eligible to become a player. If he's not listed, he's not. But if he's then added to the roster at the cost of a team T, he's now eligible.

The scenarios you propose all involve determinations of eligibility that are external to the rules of the game. We have no part in enforcing those. If external eligibility rules are violated, the enforcement also comes externally.

Supposing that all coaches suddenly realize that it is the case that they can not make a player a team member so they don't get hit with a bench personnel T and an indirect. Then any time a player dunks they don't write his name in the book, add him later and take the team T.

Since the NFHS has said that they want indirects for this action, one of 2 things must be true:
a - officials penalize them as team members despite not being in the book
of
b - officials penalize for adding back into the book and then additionally penalize for the dunking as the team member is added back to the book.

I think b may be a stretch, going off of billymacs administrative T page. Is it too late to penalize this?

Just throwing out a possibility.
I think you have to whack them and enforce before the clock starts, and actually I think the suspended player should get whacked becuase he shouldn't be dressed and warming up - but that is another issue.

I am just seeing serious trouble if this player is added to the book in third quarter you correctly issue the T for that and you go back and add a second T for the dunk before the game.

I'm not convinced you are wrong I can not find anything either way for the moment. I am just seeing lots of trouble.

Definition Of Team Member ???
 

"A team member is a member of bench personnel who is in uniform and is eligible to become a player".

How about this situation to confuse the issue even more?

2005 IAABO Refresher Exam

73) Squad member #45 missed the bus and is not present at the time the squad list and starting lineup must be submitted for team members. During the pregame warm up, the referee counts eleven team members for team A, but while checking the book, team A has twelve team members listed. Referee informs the coach that the squad member who is not present may not be placed in the book, even if he/she will get to the game late. Is the referee correct?

73) Yes: Rule 3, Section 2, Article 1, Rule 4, Section 34, Article 4.

Almost every one in my local board got this question wrong. We disagreed with the answer and citation then, and we still disagree with the answer and citation. If I recall, we got some type of explanation involving the definition of a "team member" involving a squad member being ready and eligible to play.

We discussed this one at length a couple of years ago and came to the conclusion that whomever came up with their interp was a complete freaking idiot.

PS. You posted that just to lure JR out of hiding, didn't you? ;)

How do you know he is not in uniform and is not ready to play, he just isn't their yet????

If we go to the book and there are 15 in the book and only 10 warming up, are we supposed to draw lines through those that are not out there warming up??? Or do we leave them in their so when they come out of the locker room choosing not to come out till game time(whether it be they are late or what), we don't have to add them?

Here's the thread: http://forum.officiating.com/basketb...fore-game.html

Bob's answer seems like a very good one to me: