Bench Personnel?
 

During a timeout by Team A, A6, A7 and A8 report to the scorers table to check into the game and return to A's huddle. Team B breaks their huddle and takes the floor. As B1 is walking past A's huddle towards the throw-in spot, he taunts A1 and the two begin fighting. Eventually, B1, B2, B3 and A1, A2 and A6 fight.

Assess penalties.

My biggest question is: how do officials determine who are players for A and who are bench personell? (A1-A8 can't all be considered players, can they?)

If you don't know who is a player and who is bench personnel, assume that they were bench personnel -- this results in the maximum penalty to the coach.

See 3.3.1E

The subs had checked in and replaced the other players. The 5 players in the game (now A1 A2 A6 A7 A8) are not considered bench personnell during a timeout. If this happened during an intermission, all players are bench personell. You eject A1 and B1 immediately and then eject the other 4 for fighting. A6 is now a player and not considered bench personnel b/c this was during a timeout so no penalty on the HC.

How do you know A6, A7, A8 went in for A3, A4 and A5?

sseltser said in his original post that they reported to check in and then returned to the huddle. He didn't mention them not doing so before the warning horn so I think it's safe to assume they checked in for A3 A4 A5 or A# whatever.

But that's the point...you know they checked in, but not for whom they checked in. So, when A1 and A2 participate in the fight are they players or bench personnel?

If A7 checked in for A1, then A1 should be considered bench personnel for purposes of indirect technical fouls on the coach. The question being posed by the OP is how, or whether to try, to determine this.

You can always ask the official scorekeeper to see if they know. If they have no definitive knowledge - you are no worse off.

Well then the OP should come back and be more specific.

How should he be more specific? It's obvious what he's asking, why it matters, and what the challenge is.

I don't have a good answer for him, but it's an excellent question.

When a team member checks in during a TO & then returns to the huddle, are they not still bench personnel until the TO is over?

Ok now I get it.

Hmmm...are they? I don't have my book at the moment. This is one I definitely should know, but I'm not sure.

Now that I think about it, you may very well be right, and that's going to make this situation a whole lot easier...

I looked through the book and couldn't find anything specific enough to cite on this.

However, I would say they're in the game and now considered players. My logic behind that is, let's say A6 goes and checks in for A1. A1 can't go out on the court after the TO is over b/c he/she was replaced and can't reenter until the clock has started. So I'd say you have to consider the subs players and the players who were replaced are now bench personnel.

I thought there was a case play on this, but I can't find it..per 4-34-1 a substitute does not become a player until either 1) they legally enter the court or 2) if entry is not legal, they are a player once the ball becomes live...since the sub in this case has not yet entered the court they can't be a player - therefore that would still make them bench personnel....that's my reasoning anyways:)

Oh really? I thought a player became bench personnel when the substitute entered the game unless the player was DQd, then the player becomes bench personnel when you tell the coach.

I also thought that during intermission, TOs all team members were considered bench personnel.

I could be wrong, surely someone will come along & let me know :D Maybe even JR...

Well what's the definition of "entered then?

No, during intermission, everyone is BP, during a TO, the players in the game are not BP.

That is what my interp is as well, however, in the OP the substitutes had not yet entered the court so I would still have them as bench personnel. Do you have a rules/casebook citation on that? I thought it was somewhere, but couldn't find it...

If your'e talking about a citation on the players not being BP during a TO, it's rule 4.34.1

Yeah the rule I have, but I thought there was a case play just like this..I agree with you that a player is not bench personnel during a timeout, but in this case where there is a substitution during the TO, the question is when does that sub become a player...depends on the definition of "enter the court" as you mentioned..

I did find a caseplay where this happens during a normal dead ball and the official beckons the subs. It says the officials and scorer should try to figure out who A6,7,8 were replacing. If that can't be determined, you should rule them as bench personnel and assess the maximum penalty to the HC for the involvement of bench personnel.

A6 is a player, so his fighting is not charged to the coach.

We don't know whether A1 and A2 are players or not (assuming the scorer doesn't know, etc), so case 3.3.1E tells us to assume they are NOT players. Charge the coach with two indirect Ts.

Rule (-) or casebook (.)

Guess I'll have to take the 8 flights down to the parking garage to get my book out the car on lunch.

That's a rule. Didn't realized I neglected to hyphenate.

Rule 4-31-1: A player is one of five team members who are legally on the court at any given time, except intermission.

JS 20 - Got it thanks, I don't know where I got TOs from :o

Back to the OP: 4-34-3 tells us the individuals who reported but didn't enter the court yet (TO) are still bench personnel.

Intermissions ...
 

Good catch.

I want to make sure I'm reading this correctly...are you saying that A6-A8 are players at the time of the fight? If so, what is the basis for this conclusion?

In practice we don't require a sub who reports during a TO to wait outside the boundary until beckoned, but he is required to by 3-3-2. Normally it is of no consequence. But 3-3-2 is the only definition or procedure we have for how a player "legally enters the court." Coming onto the floor with the other players after a TO, or remaining on the floor with the other players after the other team members go to the bench after the TO is certainly commonplace. But I can't find anything that says this constitutes the sub legally entering the court. And if I can't find justification for the obvious and common case, how I can justify saying three subs who are still in the huddle with their team have entered the court?

But 3-3-3 and 4-34-3 are both clear. Unless A6-A8 have legally entered the court, they are not considered players until the ball becomes live.

3.3.3.E, btw, specifically states that the subs in the case play have been beckoned and have entered the court. Thus it provides no guidance on this aspect of the situation; it addresses which of the replacements to consider NOT to be players.

So in the OP I have A1 and A2 fighting as players, and A6 fighting as a bench personnel.

Check the Past Interps Thread!
 

2002-03 NFHS BASKETBALL RULES INTERPRETATIONS

SITUATION 4: Substitutes A6, A7 and A8 report only their own numbers to the scorer for entry. The substitutes are beckoned into the game by an official and enter the court. Before their replacements leave the court, a fight breaks out with five (of the eight on-court) players from Team A and three players from Team B involved. RULING: Substitutes be-come players when they legally enter the court; in this case, when the official beckoned them onto the court. The players being replaced by A6, A7 and A8 were not known at the time of the fight to determine what players would be classified as “bench personnel.” The officials and scorer shall make an effort to determine who substitutes A6, A7 and A8 were replacing when the fight broke out. If the players being replaced by the substitutes cannot be determined, the only recourse the officials have to determine what penalties to assess the head coach for the involvement of bench personnel is to assess the maximum penalty. Of the five Team A players involved, assume three were bench personnel and assess three indirect technical fouls to the head coach, which results in ejection. Team B would also be awarded four free throws (two for each additional player involved in the fight). All participants are disqualified for flagrant fouls. Play would be resumed with a Team B throw-in from the division line opposite the scorer's table. (3-3-1; 10-3-10 Pen; 10-4-1h Pen; 2-3)