Double dribble?
 

NCAA-W. A1 uses her dribble, then throws a short pass to A2. A2 doesn't see the pass coming and cuts the other direction. The ball bounces a couple of times. A1 hurries to the ball, is unsure of whether she can pick it up so she doesn't try to, but gets close enough that the ball bounces into her.

I called this a double dribble. Was I correct?

I would say no because a dribble is more than a touch. It is a controlled movement. In this case, I would not penalize the player for the ball touching her. I would only penalize her for touching the ball.

I would have called an illegal dribble, but ...
 

NFHS 4-15-1: A dribble is ball movement caused by a player in control who bats (intentionally strikes the ball with the hand(s)) or pushes the ball to the floor once or several times.

The Forum is a great learning tool. I've been officiating for twenty-seven years, and up until a few minutes ago, I would have called an illegal dribble in this situation.

Didn't we have a similar question a few weeks ago about a similar pass that accidently strikes a teammate and bounces back to the first player? Was it decided that this was illegal?

It was also generally agreed that it's illegality was an obvious oversight in the rules, and that the act under discussion should not be illegal.

Just to understand: Even though the ball went to the floor as a result of a controlled and deliberate movement (i.e., the pass), because she did not reach her hands out in an obvious attempt to touch the ball, it is not an illegal dribble? Even though she moved to the ball and placed herself in a position where she was touched by it?

What would you judge this act to be if not a dribble? It kinda meets the criteria of an interrupted dribble.

Interrupted Dribble Replay ...
 

Found it. I hope this isn't considered a hijack because it presents a similar situation.

http://forum.officiating.com/basketb...situation.html

There is nothing illegal about a player running to any particular spot on the floor. Please don't try to penalize anyone for that.

Yes, I believe that this qualifies as an interrupted dribble once the ball is clearly out of player control.

Interupted Dribble, NFHS Only ...
 

NFHS 4-15-5: An interrupted dribble occurs when the ball is loose after deflecting off the dribbler or after it momentarily gets away from the dribbler.

Are you sure? She deliberately threw a pass. The ball did momentarily get away from the her, but it was a pass. I certainly can see your reasoning, but I'm still not convinced.

When the "pass" did not go TO another player, but simply went into open space on the floor it became a dribble. Since it is clearly not in player control while it is momentarily beyond the reach of this player, it seems to me that it has to become an interrupted dribble.

2003-04 NFHS BASKETBALL RULES INTERPRETATIONS

SITUATION 6: A1 jumps from the floor and
secures a defensive re-bound. A1 then pivots toward the
sideline where a teammate, A2, is standing for an outlet pass.
Just as A1 releases the pass, A2 turns and runs down the
court. A1 throws a soft bounce pass to where A2 was standing.
A1 then moves and secures the ball without dribbling. RULING:
Legal action. A1 had the pivot foot on the floor and began a
dribble by throwing the ball to the floor (the bounce pass);
the dribble ended when A1 secured the ball. Upon reaching the
ball, A1 also could have continued the dribble. (4-15-3,4)

So an interrupted dribble, which occurs after the player's original dribble has been used is not an illegal dribble? :eek:

I see your point, BITS. However, if you are going to consider the "pass" to be a dribble, then you should sound the whistle and call a violation as soon as A1 begins the second dribble.

This is a strange play, but my opinion is still that it isn't a violation because it doesn't meet the intent and purpose of the rule. A1 was not trying to dribble a second time, nor was A1 trying to touch the ball after throwing it in the direction of A2.

Just my thoughts.

You're right, this was a strange play. Just trying to understand it a little better. Nobody said a word about the call at the time; but that does not mean I got it right.

Just for my edification: If the situation were a little different, if she had passed the ball and then gone and actually picked it up, now we have an illegal dribble, correct?

Or travelling?

How so? She was not holding the ball, which is fundamental to traveling.

Yes, that would clearly be a second dribble. :)

PS It's definitely not traveling, but sadly there are many officials who would call such. :(

My bad, I was thinking about a player leaving his/her feet then passing the ball and retrieving it.

okay there is no player control during an interupted dribble, and a player may directly resume dribbling of the ball upon recovery as long as it is part of the same dribble. (didn't pick up the ball - didn't trap it on the floor, and pick it up etc.).
however my question is this; wouldn't the dribble end when the ball was touched by another player, offense or defense?

If a dribble is batted by a defender then recovered by the dribbler, they can gather the ball and dribble again. If the dribbler accidently dribbles the ball off of a teammate they can gather the ball and dribble again.

I do not see any difference becase there is loss of player control durring an iterupted dribble and the ball was touched by another player IMO ending the dribble.
I got nothing here.

Re-read the original post. The ball didn't touch another player, it touched A1 again.

OOPS - In that case -
try this,
since there is no player control during an interuppted dribble the touch by A1 did not re-establish control so it would be irrelivant to what happens next.

To recap the OP: player dribbles, ends dribble, makes short pass, receiver runs away, player moves to where ball is now bouncing on floor and ball bounces into her.

IF we consider the end of this play to be an interrupted dribble, we have a problem because the player has already used her dribble, and a second dribble, interrupted or not, is an illegal dribble.

As Nevadaref pointed out earlier, either we have to consider the initial act of pushing the ball to the floor to be the start of a second dribble, which it clearly wasn't. Or else we don't have a dribble unless A1 retrieves and controls her errant pass, which she didn't do. So what it appears to have been is merely a loose ball that touched A1, but wasn't anything else. Well, that and a bad whistle. ;)

Please forgive me for splitting hairs here, but that is still not a travel.

Yes it is...That would be a travel for lifting the pivot foot prior to starting a dribble. The same reason it is a travel when a player goes up for a jump shot, drops the ball, then retrieves it. That's a travel.

Why not? The player lifted his/her pivot foot before beginning what turned out to be a dribble. That's travelling.

See 4.44.3B

It is only a travel if A1 has not picked-up the dribble. In the OP, the dribble had been picked-up. I do not see where you changed that scenario.

The NCAA case play is A.R. 200. This ruling is identical in FED. Illegal Dribble.

I have used the following as a rule of thumb -
There is only one way to travel without the ball: A1 having secured the ball while laying or setting on the floor (not standing), then releases the ball, stands up, then picks up the ball, all this with no other players touching the ball.

But A.R. 200 Includes another possibility in sitch 1.
Is FED and NCAA in agreement?

4.44.3B has the player returning to the floor with the ball. BNRs sitch is with the ball being released.

If a player passes the ball and retrieves the pass, that is considered a dribble.

• If the player has not dribbled yet and does not lift his/her pivot prior to releasing the ball then it's a legal play.
• If the player lifts his/her pivot foot (ie: jump) prior to releasing the ball it is a travel for lifting one's pivot prior to dribbling.
• If the player has already completed a dribble prior to this action then it's an illegal dribble.

In the 2008-09 book the player jumps, releases the ball and starts a dribble -- travelling violation. I thought that was the play being discussed. Apologies if it wasn't.

I referenced an 06-07 online Fed version. It might be that my reference was incorrect. BNR's post #26 covers all the possibilities of which I am aware.
No apology necessary as no offense was taken. Friends?
(Boy isn't this kinder, gentler forum great!)