Coach fails to replace dq'ed player
 

Tonight, boys varsity. Black number 50 commits his fifth personal foul. Partner reports the foul, then tells coach 50 has 5. Coach asks a question about the foul, partner gives a brief answer. Coach nods. Everybody seems satisfied. But coach just keeps standing there. 50 keeps standing there on the court. Partner says 20 seconds. 5 seconds....horn 15 more seconds...horn Partner call a T on the coach for failing to replace his player. BUT, 22 black was standing at the X waiting to check in before the foul was ever committed, and continued to stand there until after the T call. Partner apparently wanted the coach to specify that 22 was to replace his fouled out player. I said as far as I knew, the coach had a sub standing on the X, so no further action or comment was necessary.
Right?

YOu are correct as far as I can tell. Coach has been notified. And there's a sub ready to check in. So 50 leaves, 22 comes in, let's get the game going again. No need for a T here from what I can see.

First, I hope that YOU typed this backwards, not that the timer did it backwards. It should be "5 seconds...horn, 15 more seconds...horn."

Secondly, there was an NFHS play ruling that says that if a sub from the team with the DQ'd player comes to the table, or is at the table, during the DQ interval, the official should ask who he is replacing.

Here it is:

2002-03 NFHS BASKETBALL RULES INTERPRETATIONS

SITUATION 3: A1 fouls out of the game. The Team A coach talks to a substitute and within 15 seconds sends the substitute to the table to report in the game. A Team B player then requests a time-out. RULING: Since a time-out may not be granted until a disqualified player is replaced, the administering official should ask the substitute at the table if he/she is the replacement for A1. If so, the time-out may be granted. If not, the substitute shall remain at the table and the coach must still replace A1 within the specified timeframe before the time-out may be granted. (3-3-1;10-5-1d; 5-8-3b)

Black 50, That's Your Fifth Foul ...
 

Black 50 became bench personnel when the head coach was informed that he had fouled out, but did anyone ever tell Black 50, as the rules state, that he had fouled out? It's not clear in the original post.

This is a TF that could have been avoided.

1) Report the foul.

2) Notify HC of 50's 5th foul.

3) Signal time to start substitution timer.

4) Notify partners of 50's 5th foul.

5) Upon seeing 22 standing on the X, ask HC if 22 is replacing 50.
a) If yes, bring 22 into the game and get it restarted.
b) If no, get a subsitute in for 50 first and then bring in 22.

6) If, after the HC has given a no answer to the official's quesiton and still refuses to substitute for 50, then a TF by the HC has occured. By rule the officials could not have ordered 22 into the game to replace 50 so as to avoid charging the HC with a TF, but it would be worth a try.

MTD, Sr.

Typed what backwards? Yeah, yeah, it was me. I fixed it. This situation seems to be more about granting the timeout than anything else.

Yes

What makes it proper/necessary to ask? 22 had properly reported, giving his number which is all that a substitute is required to do, is it not? 3-3-1 If 22 wasn't originally in for 50, he is now. You have one player waiting to come in, and one who now must go out. This seems to me that it kinda resolves itself.

10-5-2: "The head coach shall replace or remove a disqualified player within 20 seconds when a substitute is available."

If a guy is at the X, I consider this obligation filled, regardless of when the guy got there.

I disagree. What if #22 was a point guard and #50 was a center. If you "force" this to be the substitution, you've put the team at an unintended disadvantage.

Just ask "is this your replacement?"

I think once you notify the coach and see 22 at the table, you beckon him in. Look and see who leaves the floor. If it's 50, all is well. If not, follow the replacing player procedure.

But, isn't the replcement for 50 supposed to be the first player in, before any other subs can be allowed in?

I would agree there is no harm in asking "is this your replacement?" But, respectfully disagree with above. While I understand your point, I don't believe an official "forced" anything. Is our job to ensure there are five per team on the court or to ensure there are two forwards, two guards, and a center? What if the coach wanted to go with a smaller lineup? Isn't the coaches job to ensure he's got the proper lineup on the floor? If he's confused about his alignment and sees the problem he can also call a timeout after the replacement, right? JMO

I agree there is no harm in asking. But since he didn't ask, and there was a substitute there waiting to come on the floor, I'm saying no way was the T justified. Agreed?

That can't happen...

...due to this reason! ;)

I would agree that the T should have been avoided here. If a sub is at the table, bring them in. As far as forcing a guard to take a center's spot, that isn't my concern. My concern is making sure I have 5 players on the floor. If the wrong 5 are out there, the coach needs to take care of that.

I didn't see it above - what was the coach's reaction? Did he try to make the case that 22 was the substitute?

Just curious...I'm with those who say asking the coach if 22 is his replacement makes the most sense.

Bob:

Thanks for your support in this matter. The check is in the mail. :D

MTD, Sr.

P.S. But of course the reason you ask is to make sure that he is not a replacement for another player.

Does the coach have to replace the player? Can he choose to play with 4? There was a scene in Hoosiers where Gene Hackman chose not to replace his fouled out player, even though there was an eligible player on the bench. Should that have been a technical?

A team must play with 5 if there are 5 eligible players.

That may or may not have been the rule in the time period Hoosiers was set.

I concur with the above statement. The "T" could have been avoided. Its up to the coach to make sure the correct player is in the game to replace a DQ player. If 22 was at the x, then he comes in and 50 goes out.

NFHS 3-1-1, and 3.1.1
 

3-1-1: Each team consists of five players, one of whom is the captain.
Note: A team must begin the game with five players, but if it has no substitutes to replace disqualified or injured players, it must continue with fewer than five. When there is only one player participating for a team, the team shall forfeit the game, unless the referee believes that team has an opportunity to win the game.

3.1.1 Situation: After six players have been disqualified, Team A has only four who are eligible to continue in the game as players. In a gesture of fair play, the coach of Team B indicates a desire to withdraw a player so that each team will have four players on the court. Ruling: This is not permissible. Team B must have five players participating as long as it has that number available. If no substitute is available, a team must continue with fewer than five players. When only one player remains to participate, that team shall forfeit the game unless the referee believes this team still has an opportunity to win the game.

Quote:
<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD class=alt2 style="BORDER-RIGHT: 1px inset; BORDER-TOP: 1px inset; BORDER-LEFT: 1px inset; BORDER-BOTTOM: 1px inset">Originally Posted by bob jenkins http://forum.officiating.com/images/...s/viewpost.gif
I disagree. What if #22 was a point guard and #50 was a center. If you "force" this to be the substitution, you've put the team at an unintended disadvantage.

Just ask "is this your replacement?"
</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
Why is there still any discussion about this? I've already posted the official NFHS play ruling, which says to do exactly as Bob has stated and for the reason that MTD writes.

So please follow the proper NFHS procedure, and remember to "Always listen to Bob." ;)

First off I agree you need to make sure you have the sub the coach wants in the game for a DQ'd player. However I have not found where you must hold all other subs until the coach replaces the player. I do find the exception for FT that all players who have checked in may enter on the first throw of multiples as in 3.3.1c exception and in the mechanics manual page 40 under para 2.4.5 e "Substitues may be granted until the player has been replaced and the ball is about to become live."

That's because the NFHS has gone back and forth on this. In the 2002-03 Interp which I already posted, the instruction was to have the sub wait at the table until the DQ'd player was replaced and then enter at that time. The very next season replacing DQ'd players was a POE. Here is what it said:

Substituting – Player Disqualifications
The 30-second period permitted for replacing a disqualified player has been given much attention and discussion by the committee in the past several years. Because of numerous abuses and attempts to circumvent this rule, there have been rules proposals submitted ranging from doing away with the 30-second interval resulting in coaches having to make an immediate substitution, to not permitting the remaining four players near the team bench during this time frame. Rather than make a change that could negatively impact programs that are not abusing the situation, the committee felt it best to address the concerns through a Point of Emphasis before initiating any further rules changes. The 20-second warning horn included among this year’s rules changes was an attempt to facilitate this part of the game and assist coaches with making timely decisions. Coaches, officials and table officials should be mindful of the following:

A. The official should first notify the head coach and then the player of the disqualification and then start the 30-second interval. (2-8-4)
B. This period is NOT a time-out; it is for making a required substitution.
C. No time-outs may be granted to either team during this 30-second interval. (5-8-3b)
D. When the required substitute has reported to the table, the 30-second interval has ended and play shall resume immediately. Therefore, if the substitute reports to the table just after the disqualifying foul is called or reported, there is no 30-second interval necessary or permitted. If the required substitute reports within a few seconds of the 30 seconds permitted, play shall resume immediately. (3-3-1d; 3-3-2)
E. If the four players remaining in the game head toward the bench for instruction, they are to remain on the playing court. (4-34-1; 10-3-4)
F. Only the head coach is permitted to be standing during this interval. (10-5-1d)
G. When a substitute approaches the scorer’s table from the offending team, the administering official (and/or the official scorer) should ask the player if he/she is intending to replace the disqualified player.
H. If a substitute from the non-offending team or a substitute from the offending team for someone other than the disqualified player reports to the scorer during the wait for the required substitute, they may enter the game. (3-3-1d)
I. A warning horn shall now be sounded at 20 seconds if the required substitute has not reported to the scorer’s table. This is an indication to the head coach that a substitute should report immediately (2-12-5). This warning horn does not have the same substitution restrictions as a warning horn for a time-out (3-3-1a); other substitutes from either team may still report and enter the game until the ball is about to become live. (3-3-2)
J. If the coach fails to make the required substitution by the end of the 30-second interval, a direct technical foul shall be assessed to the head coach. (10-5-1d)

I'll have to check the current mechanics manual to see what it says on this, probably something entirely different! :rolleyes:

This seals the deal for me. The required substitute was at the table. The official did not ask if he intended to replace the disqualified player. (I think that part is stupid.)

No way was a T the right call the way it came down. The only way it would have been is if 22 was beckoned in and another player besides 50 left. Then when the 20 seconds was up, call the T whether 50 had left the floor or not.