Held ball stop clock
 

Working jr. high tonight with a veteran partner. He asked if I minded if he pointed out a thing or two he had seen me do wrong recently. I said go ahead. The problem was that I was giving the held ball signal without giving the open palm stop clock signal first. I said I thought that either was acceptable. He gave a condescending smile and said that my way was not acceptable, that there was no signal to stop the clock. I knew that the official NFHS signal had at one time said "stop clock for jump/held ball" but it was not something I had looked at recently. He went on to say that our association was going to discuss some things and try to be more uniform in calls as well as mechanics, and I said sure, who wouldn't be for that? Well, I check my new book and I see that the held ball signal still says stop clock just like always. My question is how this is done by others. Is the open palm first ok followed by a held ball signal, or is it considered overkill, or what?

Held ball signal only... That is what my association uses.

A factor:
 

Often times in held ball situations officials need to make their presence felt, with a loud whistle and physical presence, signaling to players to stop their battle. I find that when I'm in that mode I want to come in low (players often on the ground) with held ball signal.

It would be great to be able to just signal stoppage of the clock and then the held ball signal, but I don't know if that would be as effective in a floor scrum scenario -- just my take.

Held ball signal is all that's needed.

Yup. Thumbs up it is.

Blow The Whistle And ???
 

I believe that there are only three ways to stop the clock, blow the whistle and signal with an open hand for a violation, blow the whistle and signal with a fist for a foul, and blow the whistle and signal with thumbs up for a held ball.

Me, too.

Uh, you forgot the 'T' formation!!!

Technically (pun most assuredly intended) the fist is required before the formation of the T. But it's widely accepted to skip it and get straight to the good part ;)

Next time you see that partner, give them the condecending smile and ask them what the rule book says. Then point out Signal #3 in the back of the book.

Signal #3 in the current officials manual says: Stop clock for jump/held ball. I guess your partner was right, a "stop clock" signal is required. It's just that the thumbs IS the stop clock signal. ;)

When I started reading your post, I thought you were going to ask about using 'Thumbs' or 'Index Fingers'. I have seen many officials use 'Index Fingers'. Oh it looks so bad, but....:D

There Is A Fourth Way To Stop The Clock ...
 

No I didn't, as Back In The Saddle has already stated, but I did forget another way to stop the clock; just allow the period to end, the horn will sound all by itself, so there's not need for a whistle, or a signal.

Although trying to be helpful, I don't agree with the recommendation of your veteran partner. By widespread convention, the open palm signal is not just an indication to stop the clock, it conveys that the reason for doing so is that a violation has been committed. In the case of a held ball that is not true. Neither team has done anything wrong, so should the open palm signal be given?

Through 2003-04 the NFHS published a signal chart that was more step-by-step than the current one. For instance, it gave a box with signal #4 then a "+" followed by the graphics for the types of fouls (including a T). It did the same for violations by first showing giving signal #2 and then the type of violation signal.

Paradoxically, signal #2 was to accompany the sounding of the whistle and preceed the type of time-out signal when stopping the game for the granting of a time-out, but it was not listed as to be given along with the whistle and preceeding the signal for a held ball when stopping play for that. Why one and not the other? Neither are violations? Seems to me that it should be both or neither. My personal opinion is that the open palm should be used strictly for violations only. That way it conveys extra information to everyone. I happen to not use it for TOs. I just point at the individual requesting the time-out when blowing the whistle to grant it.

If your association is going to have a discussion on mechanics, you may wish to bring up those points.

PS What should we do when halting play for an injury?

Follow the current chart. Use the fist to stop the clock for a foul. Use the thumbs to stop the clock for a held ball. Use the open hand to stop the clock in all other situations (injury, time out, violation).

Your (or someone's) assumption that the open hand means "violation" is not currently valid.

Which begs for a poll. How many officials use a fist before signaling a 'T'?

Hate to argue, but if every clinic I have ever been to is correct, the official responsible for the last second shot, should blow the whistle at the end of every period.

Why? I only blow the whistle if a shot is taken near the horn. I know there is a thread on this subject somewhere on here; and most people say "why the need for that whistle?"

I believe the "official" outcome of that thread was "when in Rome..."

For the rookies out there, when you have a scrum-like situation, one of the last things I do is put my thumbs in the air for a jump ball. Blow your whistle (several times if need be), get near the players so they know you're nearby, clean up the pile, then put your thumbs in the air.

First off fist up means stop clock for foul and open hand just means stop clock, not stop for violation. Secondly a held ball is a type of violation (I'm sure it says so in the Rules by Topic book, but not sure about the rule book.)

The only possible advantage of using the open hand up before signaling held ball is if another official is calling a foul. Hand up and fist up, get together and talk.

Not me, like was said earlier, skip the fist and get straight to the good stuff:D

Violations are in Rule 9. Held ball isn't in Rule 9. Therefore, ...

Right you are. But the held ball is enumerated in NFHS 5-8: "Time-out occurs and the clock, if running, shall be stopped when an official:
ART. 1 . . . Signals:
a. A foul.
b. A held ball.
c. A violation."

It would seem it exists as a separate entity, distinct from fouls and violations.

I don't.

Yes -- that's my point.

LDUB (based on some book) has a different opinion.

I see. I am still pretty sure that held ball was listed as a violation in the rules by topic book. I'm not saying that makes it a violation, I'm just saying it.

Geeez...........you gotta be quick around here, I'd love to be there when he does.

Had an IHSA rules interpretation meeting last night and the interpreter very clearly stated to go straight to the thumbs up on a held ball, without the open hand first.

Many "T"'s happen during a dead ball when the clock is stopped. Therefore, no fist is needed... straight to the "T" only.

If the clock is stopped, why are we signaling to stop the clock???

While you're absolutely right, let me ask you this: A1 has the ball for a throw-in after a violation (so the clock is stopped), then B2 fouls A2 in-bounds. Do you put the fist up for the foul to stop the clock, even though the clock is already stopped?

<font size=1>Don't mind me, I'm just trying to stir the pot a little.</font size>

yes you put a fist up because you have a live ball situation. Note in my post early I said "stopped clock" and "dead ball".

In your situation, players are running around and making a play even though the clock is stopped because the ball is "live".

Yep, you've got a valid point. And looking at the latest signal chart, there is no combining of signals specified. I don't have my officials manual with me. I'm going to look this up tonight. Maybe another subtle, and perfectly reasonable, change I missed. :o

Again, I agree with you, but my point was in the book the signal is officially, "Stop clock for foul", not "Kill a live play and make the ball dead whether or not the clock is running because a foul occured" signal. ;) Perhaps way back in MTD, Sr's day, it was done slightly differently. But today it has evolved somewhat and is accepted that the fist is the signal for a foul, where the clock happens to stop, (if it's not already stopped), instead of the fist being the signal for the clock to stop, where there happens to be a foul. Subtle difference, perhaps? Perhaps the T has "evolved" to become a signal on it's own, rather than a type of foul, like a push or block.

I don't think anyone bats an eye anywhere in this country when an official gives the T signal without "stopping the clock" first, because it has become accepted practice. I personally like that method, because it takes a little bit of the "confrontation" out of the mechanic. Can you imagine blowing the whistle, putting your fist in the air, closing down hard on the player (or coach) while giving the optional bird-dog signal, then giving a good, hard T signal, just like you would on a close block/charge call? :D

Yes, but if he mouths off to me I just STICK HIM!

If the clock is stopped, why are we signaling to stop the clock?
 

Good point. Sometimes we don't even have give the "T" signal, like when a player's name, and number, is added to the scorebook after the ten minute mark.

You should give the T signal for this infraction while in the lane prior to administering the FTs. That makes it clear to everyone what is going on.

Why Are They Starting The Game With Foul Shots ???
 

Agree.

Called varsity games tonight with this same partner and another guy. Turns out this mechanic was stressed to them by an evaluator who was checking to see if our association had anyone qualified to call in the state tournament. Ironically, tonight this mechanic caused a problem with the arrow. Partner has the open hand, often followed by a dramatic(?) pause. The table thought he had called a violation, did not see the held ball signal, did not change the arrow.

I found the book. It is the 2006 NFHS Rules by Topic. On page 128 the topic is "Held Ball Violation". I'm not sure why the rule book and the Rules by Topic book disagree on whether a held ball is a violation or not.

Editorial mistake.

Agree that it is not the correct mechanic, but I would like to see them go to an open palm before the thumbs up. I go straight to the thumbs b/c it is the correct mechanic, but had a partner last year try to sell me on the palm first and it makes a lot of sense. If you have a scrum and two officials go flying in, if one has an open palm about to grant a time-out and the other has two thumbs, then you have an issue that the whole gym knows about...if on the other hand two officials go flying in, both go to the palm first, but one has a jump ball (and has not yet given the thumbs) and the other has a time-out, then you can get together to discuss what you have without it being obvious to everyone that the two of you had something different...like I said I don't it for the sake of the prescribed mechanic, but it makes a lot of sense..

One of the books is THE book, published by the rules-making body. The other book is A book, written about THE book, published by another company who is not the rules-making body.

Perhaps that doesn't answer the question of why they differ, but I think it does make it clear which is right. ;)

The Rules by Topic book is copyrighted by the NFHS. It says it is published jointly by the NFHS, REI, and NASO. I understand that the rule book is only published by the NFHS, but I do not think the book being jointly published makes it less official. Personally I believe that the held ball should not have been listed under violations in the Rules by Topic book. My book is 2 years old, I wonder if anything has changed in the 2007 or 2008 books.

________________________________

And more precisely, when in Illinois do as the IHSA says!:)

That was the first year that the Rules by Topic was published. Not surprisingly, it contained a number of mistakes.
Unfortunately, this one wasn't fixed in the 2007-08 version. :( The same language appears on page 150.