inadvertent whistle? pt. 2
 

A1 is on a fast break with B1 trying to catch from behind. B1 does get to the player in time and blocks the shot (girl got killed from my halfcourt angle, but that's beside the point) and the ball hits the rubber of the bottom of the backboard and jumps back in play. At this time my partner calls OOB just as the opposing team gains possession. What is the rule on inadvertent whistles like this? In college and HS? Who gets the ball? Thanks

Seems like the timing is pretty close. I'd probably give it to the team who gained possession as the whistle was sounding. If the whistle is clearly before possession was gained, your POI becomes the AP.

How does your "pro philosophy" tell you handle such a situation? :D

No Images For Fifteen Days And Counting ...
 

Agree. Before possession, there's no team control because of the loss of team control on the try.

Was the try released? Or was the shot blocked out of the shooter's hand?

Makes a big difference in this play.

There is no philosophy here. The rule says we will jump the ball at the center circle b/w any two players in the game with the shot clock at 24.

Why does it make a difference?

The shot was blocked regardless and it was loose when the whistle is blown?

Blocked Before Release, Maintains Team Control ...
 

Wow. Nice catch.

Thanks Scrapper1 ...
 

If the shot was never released, then it's just like a defender knocking away the ball from a dribbler. The ball remains in team control until an opponent secures control, or the ball becomes dead. Most of us would assume, and usually be correct, that a shot was blocked after the release, but this may not necessarily always be true. The original post simply says "blocks the shot", not "blocks the shot after it's been released on a try". Picky? Yes. Relevant? In theory, I believe, yes.

ok I would not call this a continuation of team control, ever. This is known as microdoting which can just get you in trouble. If a player is going up for a shot and has it in one hand above his/her head in a "attempt" to release the ball on a shot and a defender knocks it away I am not going to microdot this play. it is blatantly obvious to everyone that the defender is getting his or her "shot" blocked. Save yourself the hassle and dont continue and deem this team control. IMO that is foolish and not common sense refereeing.

P.S. I have always been of the mindset that officiating is not a science, but instead an art. You can't make officiating scientific because it is impossible, due to the fact of human error and you can never take the human out of the equation. So in that regard don't make officiating a science but instead keep it an art by not trying to be sooooooooo exact that it gets you in trouble.

Overly Officious Officiating ??? Maybe ???
 

My recent post: "Most of us would assume, and usually be correct, that a shot was blocked after the release, but this may not necessarily always be true. The original post simply says "blocks the shot", not "blocks the shot after it's been released on a try". Picky? Yes. Relevant? In theory, I believe, yes."

I agree with you that, what you call, "microdoting", and what many Forum members often refer to as, overly officious officiating, is not the way to realistically approach a live game. But in the context of a preseason rules interpretation question, definitions are very important, and should not be ignored, if only to emphasis how difficult it is to officiate a basketball game.

4-12- 3: Team control continues until: a. The ball is in flight during a try or tap for goal. b. An opponent secures control. c. The ball becomes dead.

4-12-4: While the ball remains live a loose ball always remains in control of the team whose player last had control, unless it is a try or tap for goal.

4-12-6: Neither team control nor player control exists during a dead ball, throw-in, a jump ball or when the ball is in flight during a try or tap for goal.

4-41-1: The act of shooting begins simultaneously with the start of the try or tap and ends when the ball is clearly in flight, and includes the airborne shooter.

4-41-2: A try for field goal is an attempt by a player to score two or three points by throwing the ball into a team’s own basket. A player is trying for goal when the player has the ball and in the official’s judgment is throwing or attempting to throw for goal. It is not essential that the ball leave the player’s hand as a foul could prevent release of the ball.

4-41-3: The try starts when the player begins the motion which habitually precedes the release of the ball.

The highlighted parts of the above quoted rules deal with the difference between a try for goal, and the release of that try for goal. In a real game situation, I will concede to you that you can probably get away with calling a try for goal a loss of team control, however, in the context of an exam question, or when confronted with a situation where going to the arrow, as in the original post, occurs when there are only a few seconds left in the game, and the misapplication, in theory, of the rule causes a team to, by definition, incorrectly gain control of the ball, and score the winning basket, then an intelligent coach, athletic director, local cable television announcer, or local newspaper sports reporter, may put you in a situation where you have, as Ricky used to say to Lucy, "A lot of 'splaining to do" to your partner, evaluator, or assigner.

You're just wrong here. If the shot never gets released, team control never ends (4-12-3a); regardless of the common coach/fan speak. Getting a shot blocked can easily happen before the release; happens all the time. Team control is never lost. Save yourself the heartache of having to explain why you went with AP instead of giving it to the team that clearly still had control.

Parts of officiating are definitely an "art," but that doesn't give you an excuse to ignore plain and simple rules.

Continuous Motion, Can't Live With It, Can't Live Without It ...
 

Snaqwells: Be careful here. We don't want to confuse any rookies out there. If by shot, you mean, try for goal, then there is one exception to your statement, continous motion:

4-41-1: The act of shooting begins simultaneously with the start of the try or tap and ends when the ball is clearly in flight, and includes the airborne shooter.
4-41-2: A try for field goal is an attempt by a player to score two or three points by throwing the ball into a team’s own basket. A player is trying for goal when the player has the ball and in the official’s judgment is throwing or attempting to throw for goal. It is not essential that the ball leave the player’s hand as a foul could prevent release of the ball.
4-41-3: The try starts when the player begins the motion which habitually precedes the release of the ball.

I do agree with you about team control. If the ball is never released, then team control is not lost, as Scrapper1 implied a few post ago.

Good point, Billy. I've corrected the original.
I'll add that while the try may begin and end, if the ball is never in flight "during" the try, team control continues. A blocked shot is the perfect example of when a try may "end" even thought team control continues.

The heartache comes when you tell that coach that the team was still in team control even after she was taking the shot. Once again, this is mircrodoting and not a misapplication of the rules imo. if it is so close to leaving the players hand, as my sitch was, although i still believe it was in her hand, I'm not going to say there is still team control.

You guys have all provided me with rule book citations and after reading them and seeing how it could confuse people, coaches, and fans this needs to be changed. They need to separate team control into 2 categories:

-Team control which would be defined as a team being in control when a player is holding, dribbling, or passing the ball, but ends when the defensive team deflects the ball or a shot is attempted.

-Team Possession which would be defined as a team being in possession of the ball when they are holding, dribbling or passing the ball, but it ends when the defensive team gains possession or their is a field goal attempted.

So in other words you just revamp what team control is and add the term team possession. This would cause all deflected balls to have no team control and would keep teams from getting royally screwed on more than just inadvertent whistles, but for the sake of the thread, inadvertent whistles...

Scrapper1 "54, Where Are You ???"
 

1) We told you who gets the ball in high school, as you asked. If the shooter released the ball, you go with the arrow, if she didn't release the ball, which is highly unlikely, but certainly possible, as Scrapper1 pointed out, the shooter's team gets the ball for a throwin at the closest spot.

2) If, as you state, "I still believe it was in her hand", the rule is quite clear; the shooter's team maintains team possession until an opponent secures control, or the ball becomes dead.

3) Your suggested rule changes certainly seem to be based on common sense, and they may someday be incorporated in the rule book, but as of 2008-09, they are not, and you can't go around making up your own interpretation when you disagree with a rule. This "not making it up as you go along philosophy" was a NFHS Point of Emphasis a few years ago.

4) Scrapper1: You've got a lot of nerve bringing up this highly unlikely scenario, and high tailing it, leaving it up to Snaqwells and me to pick up the pieces.

And this is why I asked you about your "pro philosophy." You just don't understand what it is to be an official at a non-entertainment level. :(

In a REAL basketball game officials apply the rules, are willing to make the tough calls, and don't give a d@mn what the coach thinks about their decisions.

Here is an interp issued by the NFHS a couple of seasons ago on just such a play:

2003-04 NFHS BASKETBALL RULES INTERPRETATIONS

SITUATION 5:
At the top of the key, A1 beats B1 off the dribble, reaches
the free-throw line, and pulls up for a jump shot. At the apex
of the jump and before the ball is released, B2 comes from the
side and swats the ball out of A1’s hands. The ball goes
behind A1, deflects off A2 and into the backcourt, where A3 is
the first to touch it. RULING: A backcourt violation shall be
called. Team control had continued for Team A because the try
ended before the ball was in flight. (4-12-3a; 4-40-3,4;
9-9-1)


Now go think about your "philosophy" on officiating for a while and post again when you are man enough to get plays right.

The Coup De Grâce ...
 

Nevadaref; Great job. Scrapper1 bailed out and left us with a mess (probably watching a baseball game on television) and you came along and saved the day, with a five year old interpretation . I hope that you didn't have to go way up into the attic like Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. often has to do. Why doesn't he just leave his old papyrus rule scrolls in a more convenient location?

Nah, very little research was required. That's my play. Seriously, I wrote it. :)

All I can say is hahahahahahahaha. I hope and pray you are a damn good official, cause you would need to be in order to have the right to say that BS.


I say fine to that ruling if that's what it is. That just seems horrible for the game and I would never, in a million years interpreted that play as the one mentioned as not being a field goal attempt. but i guess the NFHS has me stand corrected. too bad i couldn't go to the replay like they do EVERY PLAY in football??????

So now answer me this? the offensive player is not awarded a field goal attempt in the stat box? and the defender is not awarded a blocked shot, but instead what? A steal i guess...... I would love to see what the running score at the end of a college game would say? I would guarantee you that it would be counted as a FG attempted and a blocked shot. You guys need to send out a memo nationwide to all statisticians acknowledging that it is a travesty that they keep getting the stats incorrect. Heck, they are going to have to go back and re-tabulate all blocked shots!!! The real all-time shot blocker in college basketball might not actually be Wojciech Mydra!! It could possibly be George Mikan!! i heard he always tried to smack the ball right at the moment the offensive player released the ball!!!:cool:


AAAAHHHHHHHH MEEEE!

Yep, it's pretty basic. Follow what the rule says. Why can't you do that with all plays?

Blatantly obvious to whom? The fanboys in the stands who have never even seen a rules book? You are no better than them. You just call whatever you feel like in any given situation. :(

You seem to have no problem enforcing rules with which you agree, but simply refuse to correctly administer the ones that you don't like. Best wishes with that philosophy helping you advance. :rolleyes:

Young, dumb, and full of ...
Do this forum a favor and don't post again until you are old enough to rent a car.

I'll answer. Who cares? I don't mean to be mean-spirited, but honestly, what do those questions have to do with the rule in question? Are we going to rule incorrectly on certain plays so that the stat lines make the players happy? Really?

It seems fairly clear that you are more familiar with the NBA ruleset than with the NFHS/NCAA rules. (And there's nothing wrong with that!! I'm not trying to put you down. I think I read that you work some of the minor leagues in pro ball, and maybe D-League?) In the NBA ruleset, I believe that team control would end in the initial scenario, regardless of whether the try was released or not. Am I correct about that? Any time the defender deflects the ball, it becomes a "loose ball" situation with no team control, right?

The point is, you can't allow yourself to use the pro rules in an NCAA game. Just like I can't allow myself to use the NCAA rules when working a high school game. What if I granted an extra full time-out to a team (without the technical foul) in the closing seconds of a high school game and said that it's better for the game to have 4 full time-outs? I'd get ripped to shreds, and rightly so. And while I think that Nevadaref's comments about being "dumb and full of . . ." are probably out of line, he made them because, in this particular case, either you don't know the rule or you seem inclined to simply ignore the proper rule.

If you're going to work NCAA or NFHS games, you owe it to the participants to know those rulesets and apply them correctly. On the plus side, you're here on this forum, hopefully to learn them better.

P.S. -- I agree that there are times when "microdotting" a play is not good for the game. (For example, borderline violations like 3-seconds and palming in the backcourt.) I disagree, however, that this is a case of microdotting. This is a case of applying a clear rule to an obvious situation. JMHO.

so i guess it is true. Girls can't block shots. They strip the ball at the top of their shot attempt!:D

You're right, it is hard for me to enforce rules that are completely stupid and make no common sense, but as i stated before if this is how they want it called than by all means have a field day with it. I've had no problem trying to advance with the philosophies i have. Thanks though.

Young, dumb and full of it huh? I'm not the one who made the comment about trying to get plays right. I get more than my fair share plays right, in fact mine are documented all the time.

You're right about the pro rule, the ball does become a "loose" ball, which makes 10 times more sense to me, cause if we then have an inadvertent whistle then we can have a jump ball and everbody gets a fair shake at getting to have possession but in HS and college, you are screwing the other team over by saying the team who just "shot" it gets to retain possession.

I attempt not to use pro rules in my games, but it is what i know best so when I'm crew chief in my college games I ask for help from my crew and when i'm not CC I keep my mouth shut.

I will admit on this play that i brought up i was totally ignorant to the fact that the ball had to leave the player's hand. That seems ridiculous but it is what it is. I asked the question for a reason and received my answer. I'm not trying to argue it at all, it just irritates me that there are some insanely ridiculous non common sense rules out there. Thanks for the help. Maybe i won't screw it up next time.

I probably shouldn't be posting on here yet.... my birthday is tmrw and I still won't be able to rent a car!!:eek:

Matt's is today and now he can...remember that the next time you travel with him. :p


BTW, there are supervisors out there who call this "micro-dotting" the rule. There are others who expect the rule to be enforced to letter. Gotta know for whom you work every night you step on the court.

yeah you're right his birthday is today. We can rent them any way. The league gives us cards and the rental company never says a word, but since it seems we're going by the exact letter of the law... matt can absolutely rent a car, legally, now.

I talked to him yesterday and we want to get some dang games scheduled so bad!!!!!!:D

There may be some rules like that, but IMHO, this is not one of them. The definition is very clear on how team control ends. I don't think that the definition is even close to insane or ridiculous. It might not be 100% in line with what non-referees think it is, but oh well. If you have team control, you continue to have it until you release a try or the other team gains control.

That makes MUCH more sense to me than saying, for example, that there is team control during a throw-in, even though there was never any player control involved.

So, question. 6 team fouls on Team A. A1 is has a throw-in. A1 reaches out with one hand pushes B1 to give himself some room for the throw-in. What type of foul do we have?

Intentional.

Concur, though there's no direct rules support for it.

Ok, A1 has the ball in both hands and turns to throw the ball and his elbow unintentionally strikes B1 in the side of the head?

Personal foul on A1, B1 shoots bonus (I believe you said we were already to 6 team fouls before this play). No team/player control during throw-in so not sure what else we can have...