Coach drags out the rule book
 

As not to hijack Fiascos thread about emailing or calling a coach, Here’s a new thread.

First of all, the Dean Smith/Bobby Knight comparison is apples and oranges. Not the “same theory”. Those are books chock full of opinions and strategies based on their experiences, not on rules. For example, there is not a rule that says I have to call a timeout when the opponent goes on a 10-0 run, nor do I have to switch on all screens. The rule book, however, is different. The officials’ job is to make sure a contest is finished where both teams play within a written set of rules.

Secondly, because of what I have learned here, I would never, never, never, never, never, never, never, never, never drag out a rule book during the course of a game. Nor would I promote it to other coaches. In fact, as an 8th year varsity coach, there is probably only one time where the thought even crossed my mind. (“Coach, the ball went in and we counted the basket, therefore it cannot be an intentional foul”)

Thirdly, the sitch I questioned:

Varsity level.
Team A down by one point. I am Coach A.
A1 hits jumper, end of game buzzer sounds as ball is passing thru basket as referee is blowing whistle for a foul on A2.
Ref waives off basket as explained in Fiasco's OP.

In this case, probably at the scorers table, there will be 2 coaches and 2-3 referees. If the referees confer that the basket is not counted, I WILL bring out my rule book. No fanfare, no stomping and snorting, just a simple rule discussion. I will not take it to the local watering hole. If the referees refuse to look at it or take offense, then the AD will be making a phone call.

Which would you prefer? A call from your assignor telling you that you kicked it -or- fix it before you leave?

Again, before I get flamed, my position is for THIS EXACT SITCH ONLY.

Tell me I'm wrong and defend it and I will take it like a man and learn.

Coach, if it was me, it's a T to pull out the rule book. same as if i pass on a travel and I look up to see a coach doing his imitation of the Temptations. If i was a coach I'd point out to the official that the only way a shot in the air is canceled is if the foul is on the shooter. If that doesn't jog his memory, then I toss my rule book at his feet, tell him he should read it some time, grab my jacket and head to the locker room. :D Hope you have a good season

I don't know if I would be so quick to T the coach as I've never had this happen before. HOWEVER, I rely that the three (3) officials on the court can sort through the situation and come to the right conclusion. At the varsity level, the three officials should have amassed enough rules knowledge to come to the right decision when it's all sorted out.

I don't believe I would react too kindly to a coach pulling out the rules book BUT I believe I would just ignore the gesture and huddle with the other officials on-court.

Just my $.02. Maybe in a game situation I would react differently

-Josh

I agree completely with these statements in red.

Coach, I see you've had your caffeine this morning... :)

To address the coaching book issue, it was a far-fetched idea to make a point - do you want an official to point out in front of everybody that your coaching methods and philosophy differ from some of the greatest coaches of all time, and that's why their kids are losing? Of course not; you're the one being paid to coach, so you are the one that gets to make the coaching decisions, right or wrong. There's a time and a place to discuss those things, whether it's in the A.D.'s office, Booster Club meeting, or the local watering hole. But during the game is <B>not</B> one of those places. As an official, I would <font color=red><font size=3><B>never, never, never, never, never, never, never, never, never</font color></font size></B> discuss coaching strategy during the game, even if means a specific bad coaching decision might lead us to overtime and I will now be working longer without any additional pay. Or how about a coaching decision to let less talented kids try to be more aggressive, and our crew now has to call many more fouls than necessary? Maybe we can e-mail our concerns to the A.D. after the game, but it is not our place to tell that coach what they are doing wrong during the game, even though that coach's decisions directly affects the officiating crew. No matter how "right" an official feels about a bad coaching decision, it is simple courtesy to not show up the coach in front of others during the game.

Officials are paid to arbitrate the rules, so they get to do that, right or wrong. Yes, we make mistakes that could affect the outcome of a game, but it is not a coach's or player's job to tell us or show us the rules, even if we screw them up. A "separation of powers", so to speak. Of course, you can still voice your opinion (in a civilized manner) about the official's decision, and any good officiating crew will attempt to get a situation correct if there's a legitimate concern. But bringing a rule book to the discussion during the game crosses that line from trying to express an opinion to showing up the crew in front of other people, even if you are right. Do I want that call from the A.D. or the assignor after the game? Hell no, but just as bad, I don't want to be the one to screw up a rule either. In fact, I'll probably be getting a call from the assignor anyway if I screw up the rule and allow you to correct me.

By the way, you did neglect to address how bringing a rule book to the official does not fall under 10-4-1(b)? ;)

The bottle of Diet Mountain Dew lists the first 2 ingredients as water and orange juice….Caffiene is listed much later.

Far-fetched is correct….and is still apples and oranges and not the argument I am trying to make. I am talking game- over- buzzer- ending- rule kick. No fanfare, no disrespect, just a conversation at the table –before you leave the visual confines of the gym-where I disagree with a rule kick (not a judgement call) by pulling out the actual rule.

If you T me for it, using 10-4-1(b) then so be it I guess. Game is decided anyway. I'll sleep at night.:)


If that is true across this board, then I'm "taking it like a man" and reconsidering. Good comments from others so far, also.

With all due respect coach, you're contridicting yourself.
If we're having conversation at table after the final horn has sounded... the game is not yet over.

I would NEVER welcome a coach "pulling out the rule book" whether during the game or just after it ends.

I'd be much more likley to listen to a coach who ASKS, "Can we check the rule book?" or (even better) "Can you check with your partners?"

So the official confer and decide the goal doesn't count and the game is over. They turn from their huddle and signal no score and the run off the court. Exactly at what point during that process do you intend to bring out your rule book?

What I said and what I meant are not the same thing, I did not say what I just said. :)

Partners already confered in my OP.

I hear that. Good point.

With that process , I don't. They ran off the court. But if I chase them, then M&M will hit me with 10-4-1(b)

In the MSHSAA "Official's Manual" (available at mshsaa.org), there is on page 9 a heading titled "Procedures to Follow in Case a Game is Protested."

Essentially, if the head coach feels there has been a misapplication of a rule by contest officials, he may "file a formal, verbal complaint with the game officials who will then notify the opposing coach immediately." Note this does not allow any protest judgment calls.

Under paragraph C of this section, the protesting coach is allowed to produce the NFHS rule book for the sport in question and show game officials the appropriate rule reference and how it was misapplied (in his/her opinion). There is a maximum of 10 minutes allowed for this to take place. According to this section: "If a rule reference(s), case book play(s), or other information from MSHSAA Rule Meeting Announcement and/or MSHSAA Sport Manual is found that indicates a misapplication of a rule has occurred, the official's decision shall be corrected at that time before any further action occurs, and the game shall be resumed from the point of interruption after the correction."

Finally, here's paragraph G: "Officials that fail to allow a protest of rules application or fail to make the appropriate change when shown the rule are subject to suspension of their officiating privileges."

As if this arcane concept wasn't confusing enough, paragraph A adds to the confusion for basketball officials: "Within the guidelines of each individual sport rule code, the head coach must request a review of an official's application of a rule through the appropriate channels."

I see 5-4-2 states "The NFHS Basketball Rules Committee does not recognize protests." I suppose this means in basketball, this procedure would not apply.

Basketball is the only sport I officiate...but what about you multi-sport folks out there? Do other rules allow for a protest by the coach in the middle of a game? :confused:

You might be able to catch M&M before he gets out of the visual whatevers, but no one else I know of will take that long getting off the court.

LOLOLOLOlololololollolololDietMountainDewRunningOu tOfMyNoseLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL

I think this is a great situation. Now add to it that the winner of the game is going to the state semi-final game. It determines which officials are going to work the final the next night.

This is definitely going to decide the future of the crew.

Who is going to have the guts to say it is more important to get the play right?

IIRC, there was a play in the NBA or NCAA where an official went to the television monitor to get a play right. The officials might have gotten in trouble for using the monitor, but no one complained that they got it right. It brought replay to the game and it has helped.

In my opinion, all the assignors, state associations, teams etc. want is for rules to be correctly inforced. Would you rather be known as the official that got it right, or the guy who screwed up a rule and the game. Not sure what I would do, but if it prevented me from blowing the game, it could very well be worth it. Bringing out the rulebook is going to be a problem, but if something like what Bob suggested happened....

The high school league that I coach in allows protests to occur. The only league rules are that the protest must be made at or as close to the time of the (believed) infraction, and that you cannot protest a judgement call.

The protest is heard by the league athletic directors and the league commissioner at a special meeting. Our league rule superceeds the NF rule which doesn't allow protests. This is similar to our (MA) use of the shot clock although NF rules don't provide for one.

If a coach pulls out a rules book...
 

during a game that I am working, I'll happily point him to the rule which proves that he is wrong. ;)

A good official who knows the rules shouldn't feel threatened by a coach with a rules book.

Of course, a coach would never be seen in public with a rules book! :D

I think the irony in this whole discussion is that, generally speaking, an official who is familiar enough with the rules to be able to quickly find the correct rule when presented with a rule book "in the heat of battle" is not likely to be the same official who kicked the rule to begin with.

Volleyball allows for it. A head coach may request a timeout, consult with the first referee, and if the disputed decision is changed, the timeout is charged instead to the referee. The window of opportunity is very short, and the mandated protocol makes it very unlikely that a rule book would be present to consult. Judgment calls are not subject to review. But I have never personally seen it happen.

Very true. :)

It has nothing to do with finding the rule. It is that this action in inappropriate. Just like it is inappropriate for officials to say certain things to coaches, it is inappropriate for a coach (or official) to bring out a rulebook. If you know the rules, you do not need a rulebook to prove you right or find the rule. Actually if many coaches want to, I can quote the rule (which I do not recommend either) on the fly. If it is inappropirate for me to tell a coach to sit down and shut up, then it is inappropriate for a coach to bring a rulebook to a discussion. Also, many of the situations in basketball have nothing to do with the rulebook. Often these are judgment decisions that a rulebook is not going to solve.

Peace

I disagree. There is nothing in and of the act itself of consulting the book that is insulting, degrading, or otherwise inappropriate. It depends upon the manner in which it is done.

Apples to oranges.

That is probably true.

I did not say it was insulting or deaning. I said it was inapproriate and that is a big difference. And if it was appropriate, you would see people all over the place advocating such an action. The reality other than on this site, you probably would not find anyone of the powers that be advocating such a thing. I bet you will never see this allowed in any college league? I know it is not allowed in my state from any assignor. It is not allowed in any sport I work. It is not appropriate for an official to do the same.

It is the same thing. We all have things that would be considered unprofessional. It is unprofessional for officials to say and do things, the same things apply to a coach. We are held to standards and so are coaches. If a coach wants to complain, go through the proper channels. I have shown coaches that I am friendly with the rules after the game or through email.

And here is another caveat to this discussion, no one I work for would support such an action by a coach. Not at the high school level and certainly not the college ranks.

If you think I kicked a rule, contact the assignor or state administrator(s) and you will know what was right or wrong. If I am wrong, then the powers that be have ways to come to a solution.

But to assume that we are going to hash out things by bringing in a rulebook is silly. People here cannot agree on interpretations and have to find many other references outside the rulebook. You for one are notorious of bring out some interpretation from 1972 and you think because you have a rulebook present that is going to solve all rules problems? And we have not even discussed the casebook yet. ;)

Peace

So....what if the coach pulled Nevadaref out of his bag to provide an interp from 1972? Would that be appropriate, or inappropriate? :D

You're confusing Nevada for Chuck. Nevada would never fit in a coach's bag.

:)

True dat. However, Chuck, AFAIK, does not provide interps from 1972. You have to go to Nevadaref for those. Or, if he's not around, sometimes you can get MTD to ascend to his attic.

OTOH, I keep a full size Chuck bobblehead figurine in my bag. I pull it out during pregame and the entire crew rubs it's bobbly little head for luck. It works much better than my lucky rocket ship underwear ever did. ;)

Glad I didn't work with you back in the day.

Well said ;)

Please don't tell us you used to have your crew rub your underwear, especially not while you were wearing it! :eek:

I'm currently working on becoming an official (I've finished the test, but haven't sent it in yet since I want to double check my answers). I have previously coached travel youth basketball, 4th and 5th grade. So we're not talking varsity here, though many of the refs we get also do varsity. In particular the home court refs my park district gets are very good. Last year, between my two teams (from two different PDs), the other team got whistled for 5 technicals (which I thought was a lot). In one of those cases the player who I wanted to shoot the FT was already on the court. In the other 4, as luck would have it, he was not. Only one time was I allowed to insert my preferred player. I never argued the decision in anyway (after all, they've just given some other guy a T and I'm the good guy at this point :)), but I did grow frustrated that 60% of the time I was not able to have my preferred player shooting FTs after a T. Was the best thing there for me to just keep my mouth shut, as I did? Or would there have been a way for me to get the rule enforced correctly?

You might just phrase it in the form of a question with an obvious answer...

"Any eligible player or substitute can show these shots, right ref?"

...as you're walking Little Johnny to the table to check in.

This, IMHO, has both the advantage of using rule book terminology, which might just jog the ref's memory, and being non-confrontational. Because you're walking Johnny to the table, if the ref isn't sure, you may just get him in anyway.

If the ref doesn't let you bring in a sub, then maybe contact whomever is in charge of getting refs for the park district the next day. Who knows, it may even result in an email going out to all of the officials "reminding" them about proper procedure on this. In which case, you've done more good than just getting one set of refs to let you do the right thing.

Just my $0.02

Yes, you did the best thing. I wouldn't even blink wrong if the officials were that T happy!!

Why in the world were they assesed 5 techs?:eek:

Absolutely concur.

While your refs seem above the level of "Rec League Officials" I see in my leagues, we do misapply a rule or two every now and again (especially if it's league/age specific). As one of the more knowledgeable officials (which isn't really saying much), I sometimes send a note to the Ref Assignor and cc: the League Commish and let them know some of my observations (and I let them know when I make an error too) in hopes they will send out an informative, non-accusatory, instructional note out to the officials and do some good for the league.

Yes, you are allowed to have whomever you wish shoot the FTs for the technical foul issued to the opposing team.

It makes no sense from an officiating standpoint to only allow once out of 4 times a "preferred player to shot the FTs".

The officials either are certain they think they know the rule, or they are not certain that they know the rule. If they are certain that they think they know the rule, then they should have allowed all or none "preferred players" to shoot the Ts. If they know they don't know the rule, then they should have allowed the preferred player 2 times, because then they are incorrect at most 2 times, but are also correct 2 times.

Either way, the officials weren't consistent in this game, and that frustrates coaches. Right, barkeep49?

they were different games, Juggler.

:D Ooops! Thanks, Snaqs.

Last year I was coaching 7th/8th grade team playing a league game. The game was very close , opposing coach gets a T and I have my player shoot the FT's. He makes the first one and the official gives us the ball for a throw in. I go to the table and talk with the official about our 2nd FT and he says " only 1 FT for a bench technical " and walks off. I tried to get his attention again but no luck. At half-time I motion him over and discuss this with him and say " Let's talk with John just to be sure so the next time I officiate I don't get it wrong " and direct him to a fellow official ( 20 year Varsity ) in the stands. We talk with him and get the correct ruling without making the official feel like an idiot. I think I handled it correctly but I can see where it would be a frustrating situation for someone dealing with a incorrect rule. Just my 2 cents !


Tip

But You Don't Have To Play A Tick ...
 

Almost all the time. Don't forget the rule that you have to sit a tick.

My response to your question CoachP is this...

1. You as a coach (& your opposing coach) would be nowhere near where my partner(s) discuss this play. You (as a coach) do not get to inject your opinion on a rule in this case. You both would stay within the confines of your team bench area. So you would have no chance to pull out your copy of a rule book. Mine stays in the locker room, your's should be in your office.

2a. I would hope that my partner(s) and I would have enough guts to get the call right. Which of course is in the play as you described, is count the team a basket and report the foul. What I'd be questioning is if there is time left on the clock when the foul occurred. If the whistle is before the horn and I have definate knowledge of the time remaining, it's going back on the clock and if we're in the bonus/penalty we're shooting.

2b. If for whatever reason we get the play wrong and cancel the basket and the game is over. You won't be talking to me or my partner(s) either. We are leaving the court and getting to our locker room asap.

3. So to answer your question of if I'd rather fix it or hear about it from my assignor... well my first response is to get it right, however if we don't get it right, I'm going to hear about it from my assignor anyways, so I don't need the double whammy as it were.

Also, IMHO if a coach pulls out a rule book, they are getting a Technical Foul, to me this act is disrespectful (see below). Not that the following applies to you folks stateside, but I'm sure NF & NCAA rules have something similar to the following taken from the 2008 FIBA rules ...

38.1 Rules of conduct

38.1.1 The proper conduct of the game demands the full and loyal cooperation of the members of both teams (players, substitutes, coaches, assistant coaches, excluded players and team followers) with the officials, table officials and commissioner, if present.

38.1.2 Each team shall do its best to secure victory, but this must be done in the spirit of sportsmanship and fair play.

Under definitions it the FIBA book states:

38.3.1 A technical foul is a player non-contact foul of a behavioural nature including, but not limited to:

- Disrespectfully communicating with the officials, the commissioner, the table officials or the opponents.

My 2 cents...

they were different games. :)

Happened to me yesterday
 

MS 7th grade game... Getting ready to shoot FT and the visiting team HC and referee claim only 5 players can be in the lane under NFHS rules. I had no problem telling the R's partner that it's six in the lane and showing it to him in the rules. Of course, I was polite about it and did it in a way not to show up the officials (especially after initially reading this post :cool:). But I would never do this for a judgement call, just something as obvious as this or if the officials needed assistance with league-specific rules which are quite prevalent in MS and CYO ball here.

Afew years back, I was at a college game where the home crew erroneously changed the AP arrow (we had a foul before the throw in was complete, meaing the arrow shoudl have stayed with us). When they half ended, I told the officials the arrow should not have been switched because of the foul, but (in this ara, anyways), they didn't seem to knwo the rule, so I asked if they could at least check during their halftime meeting. WQhen they came out, they said while the rule section I cited was off by one section, I was correct, and they directed the table to switch the arrow back. Of course the table crew and opposing coach weren't too happy. I should have told them they could have 2 of the next 3 :D

Now on the other hand, I'm not sure I'd want a coach digging out the rule book during the game either. That could be a recipe for disaster ;)