Ramifications for requesting too many timeouts
 

We're playing in a fall league, getting ready for the high school season. NFHS rules, except for running clock, which I hate.

I'm not concerned with winning these games. The thing I'm most interested in, is developing these kids, getting them to work on their games.

I've got 10 kids on the bench and with the running clock it seems like the games are over in 5 minutes and none of them have gotten to play much.

This last game was particularly frustrating. The other coach seemed to be "taking advantage" of the running clock. Subbed at every dead ball. My kids barely broke a sweat in either half.

My question is: After I run out of timeouts, what are the ramifications if I call a timeout at every dead ball, in which it is their ball anyway? I know it's a technical, and they get the ball at half-court, but will I be ejected after two of them? Are there any other ramifications? Is there a point where the refs will kick my @ss? I doubt I will have the guts to do this, but I was just curious, after I was thinking what a waste of time that last game was.

Coach, no ramifications other than the technical foul called. It's a team technical, and thus a team foul. Nothing gets assessed to the head coach, however.

That being said, I can't guarantee the refs for your game would know this rule correctly. It's possible, particularly at lower levels, the refs may think it should get assessed to the head coach. If that happens, you could get ejected after two of them.

Now why would you even think of compounding the problem and adding to the frustration of you and so many others? You're going to prolong the game and not teach the kids right from wrong (although the other coach is doing nothing "technically wrong" by rule) - let it go and take the high ground. Besides, who knows what the refs at this level might do? (nothing against them, just a question as I don't know the level of official).

I guess you would have to ask your league what the ultimate ramifications would be. If all you are using is NF rules, then your team would be assessed a T not you personally as a coach. And I guess at some point someone might think you are making a travesty of the game. You are really going to have to discuss this with the people you live around. They would know more about how the league will view this and likely what their officials might do.

Peace

Curious, I'm not following your logic.

Snaq's as a coach too, my thought process was - if a coach (adult) constantly did this, what is the lesson he is teaching the kids? Why would a coach do this? What purpose would it serve? As was stated, wouldn't these actions turn the game into farse? The OP specifically says he wants to "develop these kids." I just don't feel these types of coaching actions would be along those lines. JMO

I'm not sure I see the problem. The rules allow for excessive timeouts at the cost of a T. He's not doing anything unethical here.

[/B]I don't think the other coach is doing anything wrong. Nothing against him. It's just that I asked the league rep if this was a stopped clock league (answer - yes), and we sent in our money, and come to find out, it's a running clock league. And, too late to enter another league. My choices are grin and bear it, ask for my money back and quit, or start racking up team technicals. I'm 99% sure, it's grin and bear it.

Yeah, but he could turn the game into a travesty if he is just trying to be indifferent by continuously calling timeouts when he clearly does not have one. I do not think we should be encouraging that behavior and assume that others might not have a problem with it. And the referee in any game has the right to rule on anything not specifically covered in the rules.

Peace

The purpose served would be to get my kids to break a sweat. Grunewar - since you're a coach, would you be interested in playing a game where the kids run up and down the court five times, have halftime, run up and down the court 5 times, and then shake hands and go home?

I'm exaggerating a little, but it was like that, with all the subs and free throws.

But this is specifically covered. A team can call time outs in excess of their allotted, at the cost of a team technical foul. The official is required, by rule, to grant it. The referee, by rule, is also allowed to forfeit a game if the coach is making a travesty of it. I'm not sure where any part of this situation isn't covered by specific rules?

The rule covers a situation with the expectation that a team makes a mistake and requests an extra timeout. I do not think the rule covers a coach purposely calling a timeout in excess because he is ticked off at the other coach or a rule.

Peace

I would agree that the intent of the rulesmakers was not to facilitate this kind of abuse by a coach. However, the rule is pretty clear:

(NFHS 5-12-2) Time-outs in excess of the allotted number may be requested and shall be granted during regulation playing time or any extra period at the expense of a technical foul for each.

Same in college:

(NCAA 5-15-1) Art. 1. Timeouts in excess of the allotted number may be requested and shall be granted at the expense of an administrative technical foul charged to the offending team for each taken and (women) loss of possession of the ball.

I don't see an option to ignore the timeout request for any reason, malicious or otherwise. Shall is a pretty iron-clad rulebook word.

The rules do allow for forfeiting the game if it becomes a travesty.

To me that gives pretty comprehensive rules coverage for this situation. It may not be ideal coverage, but it is comprehensive.

What exactly do you propose the referee rule on that isn't covered?

I did not say the referee would just simply ignore a request. I said that they referee might feel the action is turning the game into a travesty. I do not know about you, but if that comes into play, I usually would warn a coach before I would take such an action. Just like it is illegal FT violation committed over and over to force a team to make FT might be considered making the game a travesty of the game, so could this action. You do not just forfeit a game without some instruction to a coach to before that happens. And it really becomes the case when you realize the coach is just being obstinate.

Peace

That I agree with.

That is all I was saying. You were reading way too much into the comments.

Peace

You saved me some typing.........and agree on your follow up.

Coach Bill - I certainly appreciate your predicament and don’t know how I would react in your shoes. I’d sure as heck be frustrated too. I just don’t believe I would use your tactic.

I ref in one rec league with a running clock and ref and coach in another with 5/6/7 min quarters (depending on the age) and I like the running clock better for many reasons.

One of the biggest problems I’ve had as a ref in the leagues is teams not honoring the “you must play a quarter” or “five straight minutes” rule. Refs are specifically instructed not to get involved with these admin rules (other than to warn) as we have other issues to concern ourselves with – we instruct the offended coach to take it up with the league.

As a coach, I would probably let the game run its course, maybe say something to the coach after the game, and take it up with the league…..and hope we don’t play that team later in the yr or repetitively over the yr – as then your season would really be bad if he continues this tactic.

PS – IMO, this pales in comparison to the coach who instructs his team to pick up the full court press and keep it on when their up by 30 points and there is no mercy rule.

Good luck!

If it's a running clock league like the one I officiate in the fall, the main reason the games use a running clock is to keep the 10 or so games played on the same court on schedule - basically to guarantee that you can start games on the hour. If you decided to call a timeout at every dead ball, you would not only irritate just about everyone involved in your game, but also the dozens of people who have games scheduled behind yours.

I agree with floating the trial balloon to the league before going forward with this. Personally, I don't think the extra playing time you garner would be worth the headache. At most, you'll gain what, 30 seconds of time?

Again, I don't see how this is at all "unethical" or "low road." The rules very specifically cover this, so it's not a 2-3 situation. Pragmatically, it wouldn't make sense, though.

Agreed. They've got a running clock so they can get all the games in. You might get away with it once but after that, they're just going to tell the offiicals to ignore the excessive TO requests.

Just because the rules allow or don't prohibit something doesn't necessarily mean it is ethical or acceptable.

In a running clock league like this, I'd roll the clock once this particular timeout ends...even if it didn't normally start. The clock would run during the T FTs...eating up the clock anyway....that's assuming I don't just declare it a travesty and go home.

At the same time, I'd be quite particular about not letting subs in that were "not ready".

Neither of these forms of gamesmanship should not be part of youth sports.

What some of these leagues do (and maybe coach Bill can suggest it to the league) is allow NO subs (other than for injury) except at designaed points -- usually 1/2 way through a quarter. Then, usually, it's 5-out, 5-in. So, everyone gets to play the "required" amount, the playing time isn't drastically reduced, and the games still end (and the next one starts) on time.

And just because it's not standard doesn't mean it's unethical.

That said, I agree. The clock would start "on the ready." In the end, it would cost the kids playing time rather than save it (due to the free throws).

FYI - The league agreed to stop the clock on free throws. This will make it more palatable, and was a compromise since they admit that they told me it was a stopped clock league.

Thanks for the info. I was never gonna start racking up the timeouts/technicals, but it's good to know they get charged to the team.

Good news, and well done.

Since I've been on the Board of our local kids rec league for 17 years, I have a lot of experience with both the timing of games and the playing time for the kids. We restrict the number of players on each team to a maximum of 10 and any kid who shows up for both practices during the week must play at least half the game on Saturday. That means that if a team has 10 kids and they all show up for the practices, they will all play half the game on Saturday (or on a weeknight for HS level). Of course, this timing is somewhat approximate, although as close as the clock situation will allow. Our 3rd and 4th grade teams play 8 minute quarters with running clock, 5th and 6th play six minute stop time quarters, 7th and 8th play seven minute stop time quarters and HS plays 20 minute running halves. This is dictated by the amount of time we have to get all the games in. HS games are played on weeknights. We rent the gyms from the School District and they are pretty strict about us not running over the rental times because there are custodians in the schools who stay in the gyms during the games (school district policy to have a school district employee in the gym during games) and they are union employees so the district is very specific about their clock in and out times.

BTW - the referees are not responsible for monitoring the amount of playing time the kids get. Our policy puts the burden on a parent to complain to the Board and then a Board member checks it out. Since I am a referee and a Board member (as are a few others), I sometime get asked to "testify" as to my perception of the playing time of a player if there is a complaint but usually we are not concentrating on keeping track of this. We have enough else to do smacking unruly parents upside the head with frying pans. You should try it sometime. It works pretty well. :)

There is a 6th grade coach in our CYO Division who feels the playing time rule (players must appear in at least 2 quarters, but no more than 3 in a regulation game) doesn't apply. The first time we played them, he claimed he couldn't follow it because he only had 8 players. Of course I have an index card showing how it can be done with as little as 7 players. :D

But this is one of my peeves, too. If the shoe was on the other foot, these same teams would be asking us why we were ignoring the rules. :mad: {/soapbox}

Mark - just curious, has it ever really come to this? Testimony? If so what were the results? Did it get ugly? Team forfeit the game? Warning? Bar the coach? Draw and quarter? Inquiring minds want to know? (well, at least me anyhow)

Coach, your game officials are make less than half the money which they would make during the season for a stopped clock game which would usually last about 1 hour 15 minutes including a 10 minute half time and all. These running clock games typically have a stopped clock in the last 2 minutes and sometime the last 2 of both halves and the games still run about 55 minutes. Just something to think of.
You could also tell some of the players who won't play during the season that the game is in another gym so only the 6 or 7 players you want show up. Then there is pleanty of time for everyone.

Or is stat derived from the Latin word "statim" for "immediately" ???
 

Thus the username Stat-Man ???

No, it just takes the form of a parent complaining to the Board, then someone from the Board calling the refs and some of the other parents, then reporting back to a meeting of the Board as to what happened (after speaking with the coach, of course). I don't think it's ever gone beyond just a subsequent call to the coach to remind him or her of the rule. In all those years, I can't remember it happening twice with the same coach. Almost without exception, the coaches are parents and the kids on their team usually (but not always, since they can attend different schools) know each other so it's a pretty friendly situation.