Situation: 1st quarter 2 minutes gone by, A1 is inbounding the ball in the backcourt after ball was tipped out by B1, A1 trying to inbound the ball to A2, B1 is warned to not reach over the endline to prevent the throw-in,as ball is reset for throw-in B1 maliciously whacks A1 in the face during the throw-in, trail official calls Technical foul on B1. Reporting the foul on B1 Ref is informed A2 is not in the book, What do we have now? A technical on B1 and a technical on Team A for player A2 not being in the book, seeing the clock was not started prior to warning, there cannot be a False-Double-Foul? Does Team B receive the ball at Half court following the free-throws? or alternating possion arrow? This actually happened in Maryland the past year in a girls high school game.

The first mistake was calling a T on the B player for hitting the thrower...that is an Intentional Foul (or possibly a Flagrant Foul) - but not a T...after that, you penalize the fouls in the order they occur...so A1 will get two shots for the Intentional with no one on the lane...then a B player will shoot the two shots for the administrative T and B will get the ball at half-court opposite the table...how did the refs handle it in Maryland???

If you call this an intentional foul (2 f/t's + ball), why does B get the ball? I understand B will shoot the technical after A shoot the intentional, but does the technical then over-ride A getting the ball because of the intentional? Am I making sense?

Sure it does, at least under NF rules. Penalize in the order in which they occur.

It doesn't over-ride it, but because the fouls were committed in a certain order, you administer the penalties for the fouls in that order...A will not get the ball oob because we have to go shoot free-throws at B's end, and then B does get the ball oob because A committed the last foul - the administrative T for not having A2 in the book...now I have to ask if I am making sense...the easy answer is what Tony and I both said already - punish the fouls in the order they occur...

Whether this game is played under NFHS or NCAA rules determines how this situation is handled.

RockyRoad is correct in stating that the contact by B1 is NOT a technical foul. What he should have included is that the contact by B1 is a personal foul (by rule this foul is either an intentional foul or a flagrant foul, a judgement decision by the administering official); this is the same under both NFHS and NCAA rules.


Under both NFHS and NCAA rules you have a false double foul situation:

NFHS: Technical foul by Team B (see below) followed by a personal (see official's judgement above) foul by B1 followed by a technical foul by Team A.

NCAA: Personal foul by B1 followed by a technical foul by Team A.


NFHS: The penalties for the foul are administered in the order that the fouls were committed. Team B had been issued a team warning the first time B1 reached thru the boundary-line plane (R4-S46-A1 and R9-S2-A11); therefore when B1 made contact with A1, two fouls were committed at the same time (in this case a false multiple foul; see R4-S19-A11): 1) a technical foul by Team B per R4-S46-A1 and R10-S1-A10; and a personal foul by B1. The false multiple foul by Team B was then followed by a technical foul by Team A.

The penalties for the fouls are administered in the order that the fouls were committed. 1) Any player(s) from Team A will shoot a total of two free throws for the technical foul by Team B. 2) A1 shots two free throws for the penalty for B1 personal foul. 3) Any player(s) from Team B will shoot a total of two free throws for the technical foul by Team A; Team B then has possession (not control) of the ball for a throw-in at the division line opposite the Scorer's/Timer's Table.

One final note: All of three fouls will count toward the team foul totals of each team. A2 is not guilty of any foul, and B1 is guilty of only a personal foul.


NCAA: Under NCAA rules there are no official warings given to a player for reaching thru the boundary-line plane during a throw-in; it is just a throw-in violation. The penalties for the fouls are not administered in the order that the fouls were committed. 1) Any player(s) from Team B will shoot a total of two free throws for the technical foul by Team A. 2) A1 shots two free throws for the penalty for B1 personal foul; then Team A gets possession of the ball for a throw-in nearest the spot of the personal foul by B1. The technical foul by Team A does not count toward Team A's team foul totals; A2 is not guilty of any foul. B1 is guilty of only a personal foul and this foul does count toward Team B's team foul totals.


It should be noted that nder both NFHS/NCAA rules Team A is guilty of a technical foul adding A2's name to the book, only if this is the first addition/correction to the scorebook after the game has started.


"Dont' you love it when a plan comes together."
Hanibal Smith (I think that was the character's last name.)
Commanding Officer the A Team

I think ol' Hannibal best find a new plan!
I don't agree at all with calling a personal and a T on B.One foul only should be called,just like Rocky said.Take a look at R-9-2Penalty(4).
I think that you got a little carried away on this one,Mark.

I agree completely with JR. No way on earth you call the T for breaking the plane and the intentional for fouling the inbounder. Call the intentional and move on.

Chuck

Mark you'd be nuts to enforce it the way you describe.
There is no way I will penalize the same action twice. Although the rule book does not mention double jeopardy, I'd think you would be hard pressed to find a situation where the reaching thru the plane and hitting the player is both a T and a personal ( one for delay) and (personal foul)
The only thing that would happen in the situation you describe is giving 2 fouls to the same player since delay T's are a team and not a personal if I remember right..
You would be giving the opposing team 4 shots and the ball for one action. I dont think you can find a case book play that takes that stand.

Here's my commentary on the rules... They need to get rid of all the multiple foul garbage Its a confusing, archaic, and idiotic mumbo jumbo that takes up more space in the rule book than it's worth and does not accomplish anything.

Chuck,it's impossible to call it the way Mark wants to anyway,by rule.The sequence is(according to Mark):
1)B1 reaches through plane.B1 gets T for delay of game.Ball is now dead by rule.
2)B1 then contacts A1.Since ball is dead,this HAS to be another T,if you're going to call it that way.By rule,you can't call it a personal foul of some kind.
The bottom line is the rulebook won't let you call T->PF->T in this case!
You don't call 2 T's for a single act.

Agree with you, Chuck. don't see how Mark can penalize the same action twice. Furthermore, a I understand it, if the intentional contact over the line foul occurred first, that action satisfies the requirement of the warning for merely reaching across the line. Therefore, if the same team subsequently violates by reaching across the plane, it is a T foul and not a warning. This would further support my view that no double foul should be called as per Mark's interpretation.

The contact over the line is an intentional personal foul only.Contact with the ball only,or breaking the plane after already being warned would be a T.No "delay of game" warning goes with the intentional PF call.If the same team reaches across the plane again,they will still get a warning before they are assessed a T.That's the language straight out of R9-2Penalty(4) that I quoted before.If you called the intentional personal foul and also gave them a delay-of-game warning on the same play,you would again be penalising a single action twice.

As soon as I hit the Submit Reply button I know that my posting would generate a lot of discussion. I pounded out my original posting very hurriedly without thinking the whole play through and would like to make some minor tweakings in my ruling.

Lets go back in time before the NFHS added R4-S46-A1 to its rules book. Prior to that school year the rules for both NFHS and NCAA were the same. The only difference being the Section and Article numbers; how the rules were interpreted and the rulings for infractions of these rules were the same. For that starting point lets look at how we can break down the posted play per the rules before NFHS R4-S46-A3 went into effect.


Play 1: Team B has just scored a field goal and A1 has possession of the ball out-of-bounds for a throw-in. (a) B1 reaches thru the boundary-line plane. (b) B1 reaches thru the boundary-line plane and makes contact with the ball while A1 is holding it. (c) B1 reaches thru the boundary-line plane and makes illegal contact with A1. RULING: (a) B1 has committed a throw-in violation. The penalty is a throw-in by Team A nearest the spot of the violation by B1. This throw-in is a designated spot throw-in. Is this the penalty that the official really wants to or should impose? The official has to look at the entire play: (i) Is Team B trying to stop the clock (especially if Team A can hold the ball out-of-bounds and let the clock run out)? (ii) Is Team B trying to stop the clock to get substitutes in the game? (iii) Does Team B want to take Team A’s right to run the end line by committing a throw-in violation? (b) Technical foul by B1 for delay of game. The breaking of the plane violation by B1 is ignored. (c) Intentional (possibly a flagrant) personal foul by B1. The breaking of the plane violation by B1 is ignored.

As one can see in Plays 1b and 1c, that even though a violation occurred first, causing the ball to become dead, the NFHS and NCAA wanted the officials to ignore the ball becoming dead and penalize the more serious infraction of the rules.


Now lets travel to the present. Under NCAA rules nothing has changed has changed for Plays 1a, 1b, and 1c except that if the official decides to penalize Team B in Play 1a, Team A retains the right to run the end line on the ensuing throw-in. NFHS rules concur with the NCAA for Play 1a. BUT under NFHS one has contend with R4-S46-A3 for Plays 1b and 1c.

Lets look at Plays 1b and 1c if NFHS R4-S46-A1 has not yet been invoked. Jurassic Referee is correct in stating that NFHS R9-S2, Penalty 3 and 4 applies to Plays 1b and 1c respectively, and the official warning is invoked as well as the penalties for the fouls.

If NFHS R4-S46-A3 is effect a technical foul, has been committed by Team B as soon as B1 breaks the boundary-line plane in Plays 1a, 1b, and 1c. In Play 1a it is business as usual; Team A is awarded two free throws and the ball out-of-bounds at the division line opposite the Scorer’s/Timer’s Table. BUT for Plays 1b and 1c, life for the game officials is not so easy.

As I stated previously, a technical foul, has been committed by Team B as soon as B1 breaks the boundary-line plane. In Play 1b, the officials should ignore B1’s contact with the ball therefore there is only the technical foul by Team B. In Play 1c, the officials have to look at how B1 made contact with A1. If NFHS R4-S46-A1 has not been invoked, we know that B1’s contact with A1 is an intentional personal foul by rule (and quite possibly be a flagrant personal foul). It is my interpretation of the rules that the intentional personal foul portion of NFHS R9-S2, Penalty 4 is not applicable. Because the ball has become dead because of the technical foul per NFHS R4-S46-A1, the official as to make a decision: (i) Assume that the ball has inbounds status, would the contact by B1 be considered a common foul, if so ignore the contact by B1. (ii) Is the contact by B1 intentional, then, the contact by B1 is an intentional technical foul. (iii) Is the contact by B1 flagrant, then, the contact by B1 is a flagrant technical foul.


So the RULINGS for Play 1c is as follows:

NCAA: Under NCAA rules there are no official warnings given to a player for reaching thru the boundary-line plane during a throw-in; it is just a throw-in violation. The penalties for the fouls are not administered in the order that the fouls were committed. 1) Any player(s) from Team B will shoot a total of two free throws for the technical foul by Team A. 2) A1 shoots two free throws for the penalty for B1’s personal foul; then Team A gets possession of the ball for a throw-in nearest the spot of the personal foul by B1. The technical foul by Team A does not count toward Team A's team foul totals; A2 is not guilty of any foul. B1 is guilty of only a personal foul and this foul does count toward Team B's team foul totals.


NFHS: In Plays 1c(i, ii, iii), when B1 reached thru the boundary-line Team B has committed a technical foul per R4-S46-A1 and R10-S1-A10 and Team A has committed a technical foul per R10-S1-A2b. And:

Play 1c(i): The penalties for the fouls are administered in the order that the fouls were committed. 1) Any player(s) from Team A will shoot a total of two free throws for the technical foul by Team B. 2) Any player(s) from Team B will shoot a total of two free throws for the technical foul by Team A; Team B then has possession of the ball for a throw-in at the division line opposite the Scorer's/Timer's Table. Both of the fouls will count toward the team foul totals of each team.

Play 1c(ii): The penalties for the foul are administered in the order that the fouls were committed. 1) Any player(s) from Team A will shoot a total of four free throws for the two technical fouls by Team B. 2) Any player(s) from Team B will shoot a total of two free throws for the technical foul by Team A; Team B then has possession of the ball for a throw-in at the division line opposite the Scorer's/Timer's Table. All of three fouls will count toward the team foul totals of each team. The technical foul by B1 will count toward is total of five personal/technical foul count and his two technical foul count.

Play 1c(iii): The penalties for the foul are administered in the order that the fouls were committed. 1) Any player(s) from Team A will shoot a total of four free throws for the two technical fouls by Team B. 2) Any player(s) from Team B will shoot a total of two free throws for the technical foul by Team A; Team B then has possession of the ball for a throw-in at the division line opposite the Scorer's/Timer's Table. All of three fouls will count toward the team foul totals of each team. B1 is disqualified because of the flagrant technical foul.

Mark, with all due respect, can't you give us the 50 cent version as opposed to the $50 version? 14 paragraphs to explain this is a little much.

Mark,let me point out three very obvious things to you:
1)Rule 9-2-Penalty(4) states "If an opponent(s) of the thrower reaches through the boundary plane and fouls the thrower,an intentional personal foul shall be charged to the defender.No warning or delay required.".It does NOT state that you also charge a technical foul to the defender.The language used is precise and specific!
2)Rule 9-2-4Penalty(3) states "If an opponent of a thrower reaches through the throw-in line boundary plane and touches or dislodges the ball,a technical foul shall be charged to the defender.No warning for delay required.".It does NOT state that you can charge two technical fouls to the defender for the two separate acts(breaking the boundary plane AND hitting the ball).Again,the language used is precise and specific!
3)You have already changed your call from your original post.In your original post,you stated that B got a technical foul followed by a personal foul.You now admit(while hiding it in your second 10,000 word essay)that it cannot be a personal foul by rule and you were wrong-just as I pointed out.

The rationale that you are trying to use is not backed up anywhere in the rule or case books,and never has been.You and Hannibal completely blew this one.Before you get writer's cramp responding,why don't you just e-mail someone on the FED rule commitee and get their opinion.

Tony,don't you ever sleep?Try reading Mark's reply again.Might help! :D

I never did hide my change of heart; I said I was changing my ruling in the second sentence of my very first paragraph (there were only two sentences in that paragraph) of my second posting. How is that hiding? I stated up front that I had reconsidered some of my positions.


I have always agreed with you concerning your first two points above. Both of those penalties deal with Team B committing an infraction of the rules before NFHS R4-S46-A1 has been invoked. Why? By definition, the throw-in violation by B1 is supposed to cause the ball to become dead. Meaning that that in: Penalty 3, B1's touching of the ball is to be ignored because the ball is already dead unless in the official's judgment B1's touching the ball is unsportsmanlike; Penalty 4, B1's contact with A1 is to be ignored because the ball is already dead unless in the official's judgment B1's contact with A1 is unsportsmanlike. BUT the NFHS did not want the contact with the ball or the contact with A1 to be ignored. Therefore the Penalties 3 and 4 presume that R4-S46-A1 has not been invoked yet, the oficial acknowledges the throw-in violation by B1, by issuing an official team warning, but penalizes the TF in 3 and the IPF in 4 because these infractions and their penalties are more severe than the penalty for the throw-in.

Re-read my second post. My second post deals with how to deal with the original play that started this discussion [my Play 1c(i, ii, iii)], and that is when B1 reached thru the boundary-line plane and made contact with A1, an official team warning for R4-S46-A1 was already in the scorebook. The instant that B1 reached thru the boundary-line plane Team B had committed a technical foul and this technical foul cannot be ignored. The problem is to how to handle B1's contact with A1 and that is what I tried to address in my second post.

And yes I do intend to email Mary Struckhoff at NFHS as well as a few past and present members of the NFHS Rules Committee for their learned opinions.

That was the $0.50 version.

Mark,please post your answer when you get an A.R. Until then,I disagree with you double-penalising a player.The key words in R9-2Penalty3&4 are "no warning for delay required".That covers all cases,and the rest of the language is very precise.

As I have stated before, by definition, the ball becomes dead when B1 committed the throw-in violation of reaching thru the boundary-line plane, meaning if B1 were to contintue on and touch the ball being held by A1 or make contact with A1, those two actions are to be ignored unless they are unsportsmanlike (in the official's judgment). But NFHS R4-S46-A1 cause an exception to the dead ball definition to be in effect for these two situations if the R4-S46-A1 has not yet been invoked. That is why "no warning for delay required" is at the end of R9-S2, Penalties 3 and 4. But once the R4-S46-A1 warning has been officially entered into the scorebook, B1's breaking of the boundary-line plane has to be penalized regardless of what he does after breaking the boundary-line plane. In my revised posting I did not say that you HAD to double penalize Team B in my Play 1c(i, ii, iii), but the official has three options available to him because R10-S1-A10 has to take precedence over R9-S2, Penalty 4.

Mark Iam not sure I agree with your interpretation.

Let's assume the ball becomes dead when the player breaks the plane, and you have already given the warning.

Then what you said is that unless the contact is nsportsmanlike, the contact is ignored. If that is the case then why would the book talk about intentional fouls on the guy OOB? If the ball is dead then any foul on a player out of bound is a T, and there could be no leeway for making it intentional since all dead ball fouls that are called are T's.

I disagree breaking the plane makes te ball dead automatically.

There are different penalties on the defense for doing something stupid on the throw-in.

Breaking the plane is a delay tactic- warning once-if it occurs again it is a T (I dont have my books with me but if I remember right)Delays are are assigned to the team. It is not given to the player as a personal foul.

Hitting the ball while it is OOB is a T assigned to the player. (Read this as a non-contact foul while ball is live)

Fouling a player who is OOB is intentional. (Read this as contact while ball is live)

If the rules comitte had wanted the ball to become dead when the plane was broken they would have stated that more clearly and not have intentional foul ruling that contradict the basic premise of rule.

My two cents are that the ball on a delay on a throw-in remains live until we make it dead to issue a warning. I know all other delay situations the ball is dead, which will give you ammunition to say the ball is dead here, but I dont think you could ever justify calling or creating ruling that it is an intentional foul on a defensive player if the ball was dead.

Padgett- my apologies this was my fifty cent version

I can't believe we're still having this conversation. JR hit the nail on the head in his first response to Mark. The penalty section of rule 9-2 is unmistakable. "If an opponent(s) of the thrower reaches through the throw-in boundary-line plane and fouls the thrower, an intentional personal foul shall be charged to the offender." There are no "alternatives" here. You call the intentional (personal) and move on. What is the confusion on this? :confused:

If you're still unsure, look at case 9.2.11. It deals with touching the ball instead of the player, but the application is the same.

Chuck

Right. Also look at the 10.3.12 cases. All impose only a single penalty -- not one for breaking the plane, plus another for contacting the ball / player.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

As I have stated before, by definition, the ball becomes dead when B1 committed the throw-in violation of reaching thru the boundary-line plane, meaning if B1 were to contintue on and touch the ball being held by A1 or make contact with A1, those two actions are to be ignored unless they are unsportsmanlike (in the official's judgment).

Mark,R9-2-11Penalty3&4 says that a T or an intentional foul "SHALL" be called.Not "may"--"SHALL!!".It also says that a warning is NOT required before you call these.The rulebook won't allow us to ignore these acts.There is NO judgement allowed in the way these plays are written!!

"Wolkenkookkooksheim!"-an historical quote for you,Mark.:D

[Edited by Jurassic Referee on May 10th, 2002 at 01:22 PM]

Hey Mark, I thought you cannot have a False Double Foul if the clock is stopped, I said Ball was tipped out by B1 then all the action took place. Clock was not running...... no time off the clock since ball was tipped out by B. We cannot have a false double foul here! Check your rule book on False Double foul on clock running or not??

I'm afraid you're wrong.
 

I think Mark is wrong about a couple of things in this thread. However, he was not wrong about this being a FDF. A false double foul does not require that any time run off the clock. The only requirement is that the second foul occurs before the clock starts. It does not say that the clock has to be running when the first foul occurs.

Well, Tom, looks like you're the one who needs to check the rule book. Good thing you didn't bet any money on that one :) There's no provision regarding false double fouls that says the clock must be running. In fact, since in most cases false double fouls do not occur simultaneously, at least one of the FDFs will almost always occur with the clock stopped.

Example: A1 drives to the basket. B1 fouls A1 while A1 is in the act of shooting (personal foul). A1's basket is successful. A1 walks to the FT line (with clock stopped) and then verbally taunts B1 (technical foul).

This is a case of false double fouls. The fouls are by opponents where the order of the fouls is easily determined.

Hope that's helpful.

Chuck

Beat 'cha to it! :D

OK, I know the rule but Hey, I bet I tripped Mark's trigger, watch his respons eon this one!

By 4 lousy minutes! :mad:

Chuck ;)

I have written a letter to Mary Struckhoff, NFHS Basketball Rules Committee Editor. If any of you would like a copy of the letter, just email me and I will be happy to email you a copy of the letter. Once I get an answer from Mary I will be happy to post.

Guys - I always thought of it this way: if you blow your whistle for breaking the plane when the defender continues his arm motion and either hits the ball or fouls the inbounder, you could never have the call for hitting the ball (on the first violation) or committing an intentional personal foul for fouling the inbounder.

Seems simple enough to me.

I agree with you Mark P., but NFHS R9-S2, Penalties 3 and 4 require the technical foul (Penalty 3) or and intentional personal foul (Penalty 4). I have been advocating that Penalties 3 and 4 are to be used only if R4-S46-A1 has not yet involked. Once R4-S46-A1 has been involked, then R9-S2, Penalty 2, takes precedence. But no one seems to be reading the penalty.

I just disagree, Mark. If the defender reaches through the OOB plane and fouls the inbounder, then you have to call the intentional, by rule. Even if you have a really quick whistle and blow it before he contacts the inbounder. If you disagree, then check out case 9.2.11 again, which I mentioned earler. It seems pretty cut and dried. Defender breaks the plane, hits the ball. Official shall call a technical foul and issue a warning for delay. Why all the consternation about this? If you touch the inbounder, it's an intentional. If you touch the ball, it's a technical. Don't make it harder than it has to be.

As usual, it's just my two cents, but it really seems like a whole lot of debate for no reason to me.

Chuck

Just wondering if you got an answer yet,Mark??