Last week, I worked a shift of HS boys varsity rec games with a fairly competent partner. We had one coach who gave him some crap. This surprised me, since I have had games with this coach for 3 or 4 years now, and I always found him to be pretty good. He's a nice guy and asks good questions. But, in our game, he thought my partner was letting too much go under the basket and told him so about 10 times.

I have this same partner again and this same team again this weekend for two games. Based on past experience with this partner, I know he is going to say something to the coach before the game. It's not going to be pretty. This will set a lousy tone for both games. Also from experience with this partner, I know that if I try to intervene or tell him to let it go and not say anything, he will be mad at me the entire day and make things miserable.

Short of asking to switch courts (probably not possible) - any suggestions? I feel like I'm between a rock and a hard place. Usually I can handle this stuff, but this partner is a personal friend of the assignor. YIKES!

mark,
you could try to catch him before he approaches the coach and start a pregame of how you would like to address the coaches actions during the game. it, as you said, would not be wise to address the coach before the game because this would give him the feeling that the crew is out to get him before the game has even started. today is a new day and a new game, and should be started with a clean slate. if your partner is competent he should be able to handle his issues or the issues that occur during the game. if not you 2 should be able to come together and get things straightened out and the ball in play.

I agree with tony's advice. However, if you think that approaching him about it, even in that way, would prove to be counter-productive on the court then I would suggest that when the two of you walk onto the court that you be the one to broach it with the coach. Don't give your partner a chance to get hot. Just say to the coach (but really, to both of them) something like, "Coach, I know we had some problems in our last game, but I think everybody here is big enough to start fresh tonight. Good luck."

If your partner starts in on the coach after that, he looks like a complete friggin idiot. It would be admitting that he wasn't big enough to let it go and start over. If he's really determined to get into it and make himself look like a jerk, then there's not much you can do.

Good luck with it and let us know how it gets handled.

Good to have you back, tony. I was wondering where you took off to. :)

Chuck

Missing something?
 

Mark,

I think you are being way too assumtive. You do not know what is going to happen. Unless your partner made some comment (which are not sharing at this point) do not over assume what might not ever happen. Just because he was giving him crap one time does not mean he will do the same the next time. You might not have any problems at all.

Just relax, it is not the end of the world. If you see a problem do your best get in the middle and solve it.

There must be more to this than you are telling us. I really do not see why anything "bad" has to happen because a coach gave an official some crap. That comes with the territory.

Peace

Re: Missing something?
 

Rut - I think you are missing something, as you allude to in your title of your post. I'm not saying that something "bad" has to happen, I'm saying that, knowing this partner, I'll bet dollars to doughnuts that something "bad" will happen. He will make a big scene before the game regardless of what I do or try to do. He's done it before, and it is routine with him.

Actually, I like Chuck's theory of me being preemptive and talking with both coaches first as if it is just a normal thing to do. I know the one coach is clever enough to figure out what I am doing, and maybe my partner would then be too embarrassed to make a scene after that.

I'll let you guys know what happened.

<b>"do not over assume what might not ever happen."</b>

<i>Based on past experience with this partner, I know he is going to say something to the coach before the game.</i>


I'd say that Mark has past experience that leads him to believe that this ref holds a grudge. Just like we have preventative officiating during a game, having preventative officiating before the game might not be a bad idea in this case either.

Even though this guy is buddies with the assignor, this might be a good time for you to be a leader and take charge of this game before it starts. Do you think you could "head off a problem" if you assumed the role of ref and "took over" the pregame duties? Any ref who holds a grudge is a weaker ref than you - handle it!

Z

Mark,
This may rightly be described as a sticky wicket.
I would do nothing specifically premptive, nor proactive.
Go into the game with a couple jokes with your partner and a couple more with your coaches. Lighten the mood before the game. Wear a larger than normal smile. And do not mention, or allude to, past turmoil which can only serve to open old wounds.
Overtly show that your are there with full intentions of having a good time with everyone. Don't place your self between your partner or your coaches.
Just get in, get done and get out.
Have a fun time and don't bear the burden.
mick

I had a very similar situation. I was told my partner had a rough game earlier in the week with a coach we were getting in the first game of a tournament the following Saturday. When I asked one of the officails who were working the other gym if/how to bring it up, he said "watch this". He then got all the officials at the school together and said he needed some help. Lying through his teeth he talked about how he and one of the coached in his first game had a couple of run-ins earlier this season. Then he said "I can tell I'm in a grumpy mood today, any advice on how not to let my history with this guy impact today's game".

My partner jumped in with most of the above advice. Guess after that time counseling another official he let his history go. We had an easy, uneventful first game and a very enjoyable day. You may want to try that, no promises but at least if you take the approach that you may have the problem he wont be on the defensive.

Jokes? I don't know any jokes. What should I do now? HELP!!!

Mark,
Yeah, right!

Okay, then... just wear a Big Grin like you are thinking of a joke.... ;)
mick

Here's what happened.....
 

Well, I got to the gym early and the coach saw me and came over to talk. He asked if either my partner from last week and/or I were going to do his game today. I told him we both were. He got a little pale and said he knew he got my partner mad at him last week and if there was anything I could suggest he do.

I told him to just coach his team and not put any focus on the officiating beyond what he normally does. I told him that in my opinion, each game starts from scratch and he would be treated by me just as I treat any coach. He thanked me and walked away.

Just then, my partner came in. He saw me talking with the coach. He said, "I'm glad you straightened him out. Saves me the trouble." I just nodded.

The game turned out to be pretty normal, with that coach's team winning in a blowout. Early, he complained about an over and back call I made, but I just stared at him and he parked his carcass back on the bench and closed his yap.

After the game, my partner said to me, "I don't know what you said to him before the game, but he seems like a changed man."

I said, "Maybe the fact that his team won by 40 had something to do with it."

In the business world, this is called "management by avoidance".

Mark.
 

Is this official have problems with everyone or is this just the relationship this coach and official have with each other.

It still seems like there is more to this story. I still feel like there is more you could tell us. But then again, this part of the story was fine. I seem to understand why you were concerned. But what happen before this last "confrontation?"

Peace

Re: Mark.
 

There's really nothing more to it. I've worked with this partner before and my only problem is that he seems to hold a grudge if a coach gives him a hard time. However, if he can satisfy his ego by admonishing the coach and the coach then becomes passive, he gets back to normal.

As far as calling a game, he does a pretty good job, although he has always calls a "kick" every time a ball hits someone's foot, regardless of the circumstances.

Today, after this game, we had two more games together. We called a total of 11 technicals in those two games, all on players. The first game was varsity boys and the second was JV boys. Seven of the eleven were for profanity, one was for second delay warning after made baskets and one was for reaching across the boundary on an OOB and hitting the ball. Another one came after he T'd a kid and the kid then went to the bench and kicked it so hard, it knocked all the gym bags and water bottles off. I gave him that one, and he was gone.

BTW - the other one came when a kid complained about a no-call to me. I let it go until he said, "I guess it's illegal for you to call any fouls today." I replied, "Not at all. Just watch. WHACK!"

I don't anticipate too many tomorrow - all girls games. :p

I guess it is just my experience.
 

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Mark Padgett

Quote:

I don't anticipate too many tomorrow - all girls games. :p

I know I am going to do it again, but I usually have more Ts in girls games. The girls tend to be more vocal and emotional. The boys tend to be more afraid or savvy not to reveal their true feelings. Kind of like real life. :p

Peace

I hardly ever have Ts in girls games, because most of the Ts I give seem to be for profanity and that is (in my experience) much more prevalent in boys games.

Besides, girls usually put the word "like" before any other word, including their swearing, so it sounds cute and takes away from the impact.

In fact, I'm waiting to hear a girls team yelling, "like, ball - like, ball - like, ball." ;)

Are you serious Rut?

<i> I know I am going to do it again, but I usually have more Ts in girls games.</i>

I have called a few coaches on Girls <i> coaches </i> over the years (mostly male coaches by the way), but I don't know as I have <i>ever </i> called a "T" on a girl <i>player.</i>
Did you ref the Girls Correction Center Leagues or something? Or perhaps you are reffing some "special" leagues for the girls who have failed anger management classes? :-)

Z

Well I am joking and I am serious at the same time. ;) I really do not know the reason why I have givin more Ts, (well at least the emotional part :p) but most of my Ts have been in Girl's Varsity games. Mainly because the coaches (Men and Women) tend to say more to you about calls. Boy's Varsity Coaches and players tend to be more sneaky and say thing under their breath. So you do not hear the comment or you do not know where it came from. Girl's Coaches and players (especially players) tend to try to be more vocal with you. Ask you questions or tell on other players. I actually had a girl this past year after calling an obvious foul tell her teammate as we were about to shoot FTs "that was a great block girl, you do that the next time." Now I came back with, "if you think you are good enough to be in the WNBA, try that there, but on my court that will not be tolerated." It got chuckles and laughs from the other girls and basicially stopped further action. Well not really, :( because a couple times down the court I called T on this particular girl. Oh well.

I have had the weirdest comments come from Girls games that I have never heard in any of my Boys games. I have never after a Boys game or during had a coach actually ask me if what I was calling was about them. I have had that happen a few times at girls games. I have never called 25 fouls in the first half in a boys game with both teams in the 2 Shot Bonus and had a coach say outloud, "I do not care about consistency, I just want you to call the darn foul." And in this particular game, every foul a girl was getting completely knocked to the floor. Not touch fouls, but instead of the coaches telling the players STOP FOULING, they blamed my partner and I for not calling enough. WHAT??!! :(

It has seemed to me for a long time that you can have the perfect game on the girl's side and you will get yelled at, threatened, rated lower and banned. Have the same game on the boy's side and you were the best official that they have ever seen that year. I realize that is a major generalization and over simplification of the issue, but I personally have had many more problems with coaches, players and fans on the girl's side of the ball.

Peace

[QUOTE]Originally posted by JRutledge

Quote:

had a coach say outloud, "I do not care about consistency, I just want you to call the darn foul."

Without trying to stir the pot, I have noticed that coaches for girls' teams in my area do not care much about consistently letting the girls play through minor contact. They expect the officials to "call the darn foul".

I think this is b/c (in my area, at least) officials were divided into a "girls' board" and a "boys' board" until just three years ago. Generally speaking, if you weren't good enough to get boys' games, you joined the girls' board. That meant that the coaches were seeing average to poor officials, even on Varsity games. And those officials didn't exercise very good judgment in whether contact constituted a foul or not. So they tended to call all contact as fouls.

Then when the "boys' officials" started doing the girls games, we tried to exercise some of that judgment. But the coaches still haven't really made the adjustment. They expect the whistle to blow on anything that looks close.

That's just my experience, but it might explain the goofy comment from that coach.

Chuck

[Edited by ChuckElias on May 5th, 2002 at 03:11 PM]

You're refering to girls officials and boys officials, in HS, don't they play the games for the most part one right after the other? In Iowa we still have a girls state assn. and a boys assn. and the officials must belong to both, however, one pair of officials call both games.

Stan, the short answer to your question is no. Girls and boys rarely play games on the same floor on the same night. Because of a Title IX lawsuit, the schools are now required to schedule an equal number of games for the girls and the boys on the "preferred" nights of the week (viz., Tuesday and Friday). This means that the girls and boys almost never play at the same site.

Additionally, officials in western MA are never scheduled to do back-to-back HS games. I don't know why that is, but every game has a different crew. Sometimes, obviously, if an official fails to show for a game then another official will have to "double dip" to cover the game, but that is the exception rather than the rule.

Lastly, as I mentioned in the above post, until 3 years ago our officials belonged to either the "boys' board" (and would get assigned boys' games only) or the "girls' board" (and would get assigned girls' games only). We were not required to be members of both boards. In fact, it was met with strong disapproval (mostly from the "boys' board") if it was discovered that you were on both boards. As I said, the girls' board was usually seen as the place for guys who couldn't get a decent boys' schedule.

That has all changed now. Now, officials from either board can work either boys or girls games, at the assignor's discretion. The result is that, within 5 years, I believe there will no longer be a "girls' board".

Chuck

Illinois is not Iowa and Missouri.
 

Not in Illinois it is not. Boy's and Girl's games are usually on seperate nights. And with those certain conferences because of some litigation that required the boy's and girl's teams to play on the same nights, the same assignors usually do not assign both. And when they do assign both, they are not assigning the same official for both. There are usually "Boy's" Officials and "Girls" Officials. At least in the assignors eyes. Even in the AD's eyes much of the time that assign their own games.

And about belonging to both associations in Iowa. I did Baseball for two years in Iowa and I only belonged to the Boy's Assiciation. Now maybe it is different in basketball, but I was always told that you had to apply to both if you wanted to do both Girl's and Boy's games. But it was never a requirement. But maybe it was the association that I belonged to.

Peace

Title IX
 

Well Chuck in Northern Illinois, there was an school district that got sued for not playing Girl's games on similar nights as the Boy's games. Because in Illinois, most girls games would be played on Monday, Wednesday, Thursday and the occasion Saturday game. Boy's would almost always be played on Tuesday, Friday and Saturday.

This school district got sued by the claim that Girls were playing on mostly school nights and would have to deal with going to school the next day. The Boy's would only have to deal with that one night a week for the most part and have days off from school after playing a Friday and Saturday. This was all based on Title IX.

This lawsuit changed the conference in which they are a member of. They started playing all games on both Boy's and Girl's games on the same nights within the conference. The Girl's would play first, the boy's next. And this influenced another conference that I worked, and they went to a similar format.

Officials hated it that had to do the girls games. Those games would be at 6:00 in the evening so they would have to be their much earlier than normal and no one would be there. But when the Boy's games started, the place would be packed. And supposibly they are going to switch it around this coming year. I think this might change or their might be some kind of compromise after this year. But we will see.

Peace

Jeff,

So even though the games were played on the same night, in the same gym, they use two different crews?

Is this 2 man or 3 man?

What are the game fees?

To the contrary Z, you must have debutantes playing in your leagues! :D

This season:

I call the 5th foul on a young lady. She heads to the bench, knowing she already has 4. She turns to me. "Bull$hit!" WHACK!

My partner called a foul on a girl. I guess she didn't like the call because she took her mouthpeice and threw it at the bleachers. He didn't see her but I did. WHACK!

Conference tourney championship game - Same partner calls the 4th personal on a girl with 30 seconds remaining in the 2nd qtr. She slams the ball to the floor. I let him have this one. WHACK!

I don't think they're that much different than boys, with regard to how they feel about calls.

Depends on the conference.

The community that got sued using Title IX, they only use 2 Man. I only did one Girl's Varsity game in that conference total in the middle of the afternoon on a Saturday. I did no boys in that conference. But the assignor that assigns it, assigns two conferences (HS Conferences, he assigns many college conferences too). I did only Boy's basketball in the "other" conference that is closer to my house. I am not 100% sure of the game fees in that conference. I want to say $48 for one game. I could be mistaken on that thought.

The conference that decided to play games on the same night without any litigation directly changing things, they pay $48 per official and 3 Officials per game. This was the first year for them to go with 3 Officials for all games. I do not think the pay was any different, but the assignor does not schedule his officials both Boy's and Girl's in this conference. He believes there are "Boy's" and "Girl's" Officials. At least that is what he has told officials in the past. Really nice guy, that is just what he believes.

Peace

TH, in my neck of the woods, that's how it's done. Each game girls or boys, Fr, JV, or Var, gets its own crew.

This is partly b/c we have about 120 guys on our board and we only service 11 or 12 public schools, a couple of prep schools, and a couple of parochial schools. (Unlike my lacrosse board that has 40 guys to work every game west of the Connecticut River!)

We work exclusively 2-man for HS. Varsity fee is $62, JV and Fr is $44.

Chuck

You mean, for the whole country???!!! YIKES! You guys must get a hell of a travel allowance.

Oops, no. Just to the NY state border. And we don't get any travel allowance at all. :(

Chuck