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-   -   Muff during Spot Throw In? (https://forum.officiating.com/basketball/47796-muff-during-spot-throw.html)

BillyMac Wed Aug 27, 2008 05:54pm
Good Citations ...
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevadaref
Here is the ruling from the NCAA's 2008 Case Book. Throw-in A.R. 157. A1, on a throw-in from a designated spot, fumbles. A1 leaves thedesignated spot to retrieve the fumble. Is this a violation? RULING: No. Since there was a fumble, the official shall blow his/herwhistle, which causes the ball to become dead, and then shall re-administer the throw-in (Rule 7-6.5

The NFHS has such a ruling for a FT shooter, but not for an inbounder.
FREE-THROWER LOSES BALL 9.1.1 SITUATION: A1, at the free throw line to attempt a free throw (a) muffs the pass from the official and it rolls forward; or (b) accidentally drops the ball before the throwing motion is started. RULING: In (a) and (b) the official should sound the whistle to prevent any violations and then start the free throw procedure again.
Nevaderef: Thanks for the citations. I wish the NFHS would have a casebook play, as the NCAA does, covering a fumbled throwin. Unless the player throwing in the ball is faking a pass, or doing something else with the ball to distract the defenders, if he, or she, simply drops the ball (fumbles, muff, etc.), I'm probably going to treat it as the NCAA citation, even if it's a NFHS game.

Nevadaref Wed Aug 27, 2008 06:50pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac
Nevaderef: Thanks for the citations. I wish the NFHS would have a casebook play, as the NCAA does, covering a fumbled throwin. Unless the player throwing in the ball is faking a pass, or doing something else with the ball to distract the defenders, if he, or she, simply drops the ball (fumbles, muff, etc.), I'm probably going to treat it as the NCAA citation, even if it's a NFHS game.
:(

I'll readminister on a muff, but not on a fumble. Why does the player deserve another chance?

If A1 is holding the ball at the top of the key and drops it so that it rolls away, would you blow the whistle and give the ball back to the player? That would be silly.

BillyMac Wed Aug 27, 2008 07:30pm
I See Your Point, But ...
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevadaref
I'll readminister on a muff, but not on a fumble. Why does the player deserve another chance? If A1 is holding the ball at the top of the key and drops it so that it rolls away, would you blow the whistle and give the ball back to the player?
I would if the player was a free throw shooter, and holding a live ball, as in Casebook Play 9.1.1, so why would I not do the same thing with a throwin that was accidently dropped before the "passing" motion is started. To credit your side of this situation, in the case of the free throw, there is team control involved, whereas, in the case of the throwin, there is no team contol involved. Maybe that's why the NCAA can have such an interpretation. I don't do NCAA games, but, isn't there team control on an NCAA throwin, whereas, there is no team contol on an NFHS throwin?

M&M Guy Wed Aug 27, 2008 08:14pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevadaref
I'll readminister on a muff, but not on a fumble. Why does the player deserve another chance?
So, tell me, what's the difference between a "fumble" (your word), and "accidental drop" (the wording in the NFHS case play)?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevadaref
If A1 is holding the ball at the top of the key and drops it so that it rolls away, would you blow the whistle and give the ball back to the player? That would be silly.
Of course it would be silly - there's no rule or case play that would allow it.

But there is a case play that allows an official to stop play when a player accidentally drops a live ball while the clock is stopped (i.e.: a free throw). The NCAA A.R takes it the step further by allowing the same stoppage on the throw-in. While I understand your position, and for the most part agree with it, I'm just trying to figure where we get to include "intent" in our decision?

Nevadaref Wed Aug 27, 2008 09:01pm
We have to follow what the rules are for the level at which we are officiating, but I still get to have my opinion about those rulings.

I agree with readministering a FT or a throw-in if the player never gained control of the ball (muffed it/never caught it), but I disagree with doing so if the player clearly had it and then lost it (fumble or drop). I don't see why he deserves a second chance after screwing up. JMO.

Fan10 Wed Aug 27, 2008 11:23pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by M&M Guy
So, tell me, what's the difference between a "fumble" (your word), and "accidental drop" (the wording in the NFHS case play)?


Of course it would be silly - there's no rule or case play that would allow it.

But there is a case play that allows an official to stop play when a player accidentally drops a live ball while the clock is stopped (i.e.: a free throw). The NCAA A.R takes it the step further by allowing the same stoppage on the throw-in. While I understand your position, and for the most part agree with it, I'm just trying to figure where we get to include "intent" in our decision?
I'm not arguing with you because I see exactly where you are coming from. But, let me ask this question: Say that the inbounder is having trouble getting the ball inbounds. The ref has reached a 4 count. Instead of calling timeout, the inbounder simply drops the ball. According to the case book quote above, he's going to get a fresh 5.

LDUB Thu Aug 28, 2008 12:51am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fan10
I'm not arguing with you because I see exactly where you are coming from. But, let me ask this question: Say that the inbounder is having trouble getting the ball inbounds. The ref has reached a 4 count. Instead of calling timeout, the inbounder simply drops the ball. According to the case book quote above, he's going to get a fresh 5.
That isn't what the case play says. The throw in is re-administered only if there is a fumble.

Camron Rust Thu Aug 28, 2008 01:34am
Quote:
Originally Posted by LDUB
That isn't what the case play says. The throw in is re-administered only if there is a fumble.
And do you think a smart player will not be able to fake a fumble?

I don't like the rule. To easy to abuse. The player, once he has control, should hang onto the ball. If it slips away from them, they shoudn't get a 2nd chance.

Nevadaref Thu Aug 28, 2008 02:39am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Padgett
If he dives towards the ball after muffing it does that make him a, er, never mind. :rolleyes:
Whoa, you might offend someone such as rainmaker! Oh wait, she's not around anymore. Carry on then.

JugglingReferee Thu Aug 28, 2008 07:22am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevadaref
Whoa, you might offend someone such as rainmaker! Oh wait, she's not around anymore. Carry on then.
She popped her head up a couple weeks ago - I bet she is reading some, still. Or maybe not. I dunno.


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