nba-charlotte vs. orlando

[crew]

has anyone been keeping up with the playoffs? did you see the last second shot by davis(charlotte) in the end of regulation? tough play!

1. what do you guys think should be the correct call?

2. should the nba emplore the nc2a rule of going to the monitor?

[Jurassic Referee]

I saw it and wondered too.The tv replay shows the ball definitely out of the shooter's hands with time on the clock.However,Yahoo Sports already has a story up on it.According to Bernie Fryer,who made the call,the officials had met during the TO to discuss the play coming up.They agreed that if they got a catch-turn-shoot sequence in the 0.7 seconds that were left,they weren't going to count the basket--no matter what the clock said.They felt that that sequence was impossible to do in so little time.That's exactly what happened,and that's why they waved it off.I bet the league office will back them on this call,too.The explanation sounds reasonable to me.

[Edited by Jurassic Referee on Apr 27th, 2002 at 06:10 PM]

[devdog69]

Sounded like even their coach agreed with that logic. Guess all is well and fine since they ended up winning in OT. Try that around here and bet we get fried.

[Mike Burns]

I noticed that a lot of attention was paid to when the clock EXPIRED, but not when the clock STARTED. From what I understand the Bernie Fryer told his crew that he would not allow a catch, turn, and shoot with only .7 remaining on the clock. Now I'm not saying that it couldn't happen, but apparently the player caught the ball, turned, elevated, and released the ball and there was still .2 on the clock. I ask again, did the clock start when the player touched the ball?

I agree that going to the monitor in a case such as this could help avoid major controversy.

Mike

[BktBallRef]

If the clock didn't properly start, who's fault is that?

The three officials on the floor.

I don't understand the call on this play.

[Mark Dexter]

Originally posted by crew
has anyone been keeping up with the playoffs? did you see the last second shot by davis(charlotte) in the end of regulation? tough play!

1. what do you guys think should be the correct call?

2. should the nba emplore the nc2a rule of going to the monitor?

Well, maybe they should employ the monitor use, but I don't know.

Without seeing the play, I'm assuming they went by the NBA rule which states that at least 0.3 must run off the clock, and more can be taken off at the crew chief's discretion.

While the monitor is helpful for determining release before the horn, it really would be hard to use for starting the clock - up to 1/10th of a second can elapse between when the clock starts and when the digits change. Might not seem like much, but it can make a difference when we're talking only 0.2-0.7 seconds on the clock.

I thought Precision Timing was supposed to end crazy stuff like this!

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

I am not an expert on NBA/WNBA rules but here are what I believe are the applicable rules references for the play that is being discussed.

NBA Rules:

Rule No. 2 -- Officials and their Duties
Section II-Duties of the Officials
h. The designated official shall toss the ball at the start of the game. The crew chief shall decide whether or not a goal shall count if the officials disagree, and he shall decide matters upon which scorers and timers disagree.
Section III-Elastic Power.
The officials shall have the power to make decisions on any point not specifically covered in the rules. The Basketball Operations Department will be advised of all such decisions at the earliest possible moment.
Section IV-Different Decisions By Officials
a. The crew chief shall have the authority to set aside or question decisions regarding a rule interpretation made by either of the other officials.
b. It is the primary duty of the trail official to determine whether a field goal attempt shall count, if successful. If he does not know, he will ask the other officials for assistance. If none of the officials know, the official timer shall be asked. His decision will be final.
EXCEPTION: Period Ending Score or No-Score in Official's Manual.
c. If the officials give conflicting signals as to who caused the ball to go out-of-bounds, a jump ball shall be called between the two players involved. However, if an official offers assistance, the calling official may change the call.

II. Basic Principles
EXPIRATION OF TIME

NO LESS THAN :00.3 must expire on the game clock when a ball is thrown inbounds and then hit instantly out-of-bounds. If less than :00.3 expires in such a sit-uation, the timer will be instructed to deduct AT LEAST :00.3 from the game clock. If, in the judgment of the official, the play took longer than :00.3, he will instruct the timer to deduct more time. If less than :00.3 remain on the game clock when this sit-uation occurs, the period is over.

NO LESS THAN :00.3 must expire on the game clock when a player secures possession of an inbounds pass and then attempts a field goal. If less than :00.3 expires in such a situation, the timer will be instructed to deduct AT LEAST :00.3 from the game clock. If less than :00.3 remain on the game clock when this situation occurs, the period is over, and the field goal attempt will be disallowed immediately whether successful or unsuccessful.

This guideline shall apply to any field goal attempted by a player after he receives an inbounds pass, OTHER THAN what will be called, for this purpose, a "tip-in" or "alley oop."

A "tip-in" is defined as any action in which the ball is deflected, not controlled, by a player and then enters the basket ring. This type of action shall be deemed legal if :00.1 or more remains in a period.

A "high lob" is defined as a pass which is tipped by an offensive player while in mid-air, and is followed instantaneously by a field goal attempt. If the reception of the pass and the subsequent "slam dunk" is immediately adjacent to the basket ring, this type of action shall be deemed legal if :00.1 or more remains in a period. However, if the "high lob" attempt is a distance from the basket ring whereby the ball must be controlled in mid-air, either one-handed or two-handed, a minimum of :00.3 is nec-essary for a field goal to score if successful.

NO LESS than :00.3 must expire on the game clock when a player secures pos-session of an unsuccessful free throw attempt and immediately requests a timeout.

If LESS than :00.3 expires in such a circumstance, the time on the game clock shall be reduced by at least :00.3. Therefore, if :00.3 OR LESS remain on the game clock when the above situation exists, and a player requests a timeout upon securing pos-session of the ball, the period is over.

During ANY regular or 20-second timeout taken during the FINAL minute of ANY period, the crew chief must meet with his fellow officials to discuss possible timing scenarios, fouls being taken if either team is under the penalty limit, number of timeouts, assistance by all officials on 3-point field goal attempts, rotation or away-from- the play foul.

Regardless of when the horn or red light operates to signify the end of period, the officials will ultimately make the final decision whether to allow or disallow a successful field goal. THE CREW CHIEF MUST TAKE CHARGE OF THE SITUATION.

[BktBallRef]

Nice copy and paste Mark but I'm not sure any of it means anything in this sitch.

The NBA uses Precision Time(not Timing). The officials on the floor are responsibile for starting the clock when the ball is touched. How can they arbitrarily decide before the play even ocurs, that they are not going to count a catch turn and shoot? The elastic rule does not allow any of us to throw out an existing rule.

I'd be interested to hear from Drake or Eli on this one. Help us understand guys!

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally posted by BktBallRef
Nice copy and paste Mark but I'm not sure any of it means anything in this sitch.

The NBA uses Precision Time(not Timing). The officials on the floor are responsibile for starting the clock when the ball is touched. How can they arbitrarily decide before the play even ocurs, that they are not going to count a catch turn and shoot? The elastic rule does not allow any of us to throw out an existing rule.

I'd be interested to hear from Drake or Eli on this one. Help us understand guys!

I don't mean to sound whinny but I do think that these are the rules references that one would look at in deciding if the officials actions were correct. I do agree with your comments concerning the Precision Timing and how the officials can arbigrarily decide before the play even occurs.

[eroe39]

It is legitimate to meet and decide what will and what will not be allowed on a last second shot. This is the best way to prepare. For example, if .1 or .2 is on the clock we would meet and say it has to be a tap. With .3 on the clock a very slight momentary possession can occur and then the ball has to be immediately released such as an alley oop. (different than college) With .7 on the clock it can be a catch and normal dip to shoot. With 1 on the clock it can be a catch and full turn and normal dip to shoot. Now the .7 and 1 are guidelines that we use and are not absolutes. The .1 and .2 and .3 are absolutes. Therefore on the .7 play judgement is still used. I have not seen this play that Bernie wiped off as I was on the golf course, but I heard from friends that it should of been allowed. I also heard that Stu Jackson, NBA operations, studied the play frame by frame to decide how much time went off and the shot should of counted and could of even counted with .6 left but no less. So according to this the play was simply missed and Bernie took the guideline too far and didn't allow for anything else.

[Jurassic Referee]

I just read a follow-up story that quoted David Stern on his reaction to the call.Basically,the Commish said:
1)Bernie Fryer made the wrong call.
2)The league has had problems all year with this type of situation and it is a concern.
3)At the end of the year,the NBA will definitely discuss implementing instant video replay for the officials to use for situations like this at the ends of quarters and the game.
It sounds like some good might come out of this for the NBA refs.You can only take judgement so far when you're dealing in tenths of a second and the rules have a grey area.
Btw,thanks,Eli,for the explanation.

[BktBallRef]

Originally posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.
I don't mean to sound whinny but I do think that these are the rules references that one would look at in deciding if the officials actions were correct. I do agree with your comments concerning the Precision Timing and how the officials can arbigrarily decide before the play even occurs.

You're not sounding whinny, like a horse, but you are sounding whiny!

I was simply pointing out that none of the references address a 7. situation. Therefore, there's no rule to fall back on to say, "in this situation, the basket cannot count."

Originally posted by eroe39
I also heard that Stu Jackson, NBA operations, studied the play frame by frame to decide how much time went off and the shot should of counted and could of even counted with .6 left but no less.

That's consistent with what I saw as well. There appeared to be .2 left when he released. So, there would have been .1 if we started at .6 and no time left had there only been one half second on the clock.

Thanks for the reply, Eli.

[Stan]

Isn't there a .7 second rule in H.S. With .7 seconds or less the players can only do a tap?

[rockyroad]

Nope...it's 0.3 or less and it has to be a tap...

[jbduke]

Does anyone know what the NBA's rationale is behind the present prohibition of looking at replays in this type of situation?

If I had been privy to the crew's conversation before the play, I probably would have not thought there would be anything wrong with their decision to disallow a catch-turn-shoot play. What i would not have considered--and presumably what they did not consider--is the type of play that occurred. Davis did not exactly catch, turn, and shoot. He had already begun squaring his body to the basket while the pass was in the air, clearly shaving some of the time necessary to square after catching the ball. Further, he certainly did not display a normal release on the play. He didn't shoot the ball so much as he pushed it. I didn't study the replay while thinking about this, but to the best of my recollection, he released the ball only slightly above chest level, not above his head as he normally would. I certainly don't think I have any groundbreaking analysis on this play; I guess I'm just concluding that it is dangerous to not allow in your mind for the possibility that plays you think you've seen many times cannot be executed generally in the same way, but with small, yet important differences.

jb