Clock Situation?????
 

Situation: 24 seconds left in the game.

Sideline out-of-bounds to Team A. Ball inbounded and there was a shot attempt by Team A, followed by an offensive rebound for Team A and then a 3 pt FG attempt by Team A that was missed and rebounded by Team B.

The clock never started. This was not noticed by the officials until the player 1 for Team A as in the act of attempting a 3.

An educated guess says that 9 seconds of action had been played.

What do you do as an official in this situation?

Nothing under NFHS and NCAA Mens rules......

There is no rules justification that will allow you to take any time off the clock.

Was your "educated guess" based on some type of visible count????

If not, discount your guess and have a talk with your partners, where you might get some solid evidence of elapsed time. Also have a chat with the folks at the table. Had they been accurate up to this point?

In the absence of any definite knowledge, just play on and keep one eye on the clock...

Lesson(s) learned....




Later

There was a disscussion and there were two closely guarded to 3 counts (that computes to at least 6). Anyway ... what should have be done?

Shold the play have been whistled dead when the player was attempting the 3? and then went back to 24 seconds and start over?

Should the play have continued with the rebound and told the clock operator to start the clock with no stoppage?

If the team is attacking the basket, let it play out. If they're not, blow it dead and discuss. At most, you can take 6 seconds off. Some will argue that since you don't have definite knowledge of all the time that should come off, you can't take a portion of it off even if you know for sure at least 6 seconds elapsed. There is no common sense that can be used on this play.

I disagree that a "visual" count is required. As long as you keep a count in your head, it does not need to be visual. Although visual is preferred.

When the official blew his/her whistle, you can make adjustments to the clock, IF you have definite knowledge of the proper amount of time to remove.

Definite knowledge is not, "well we had 2 three second counts, and don't know anything else.

Based on the play you described, Team B has the ball at the nearest spot to where they were when the whistle blew. 24 should still be showing on the clock. Do-overs are not supported in the rules.

If I see a timing error, I am likely not going to blow it dead mid-shot-attempt, as this is attacking the basket, imo. I'll kill it on the rebound, though: for both A or B. Yes, I would take 6 seconds off, plus the amount of time that I visibly counted after I noticed the clock stoppage.

This is less accurate than setting the clock to 18 seconds. Why would you not want to be the most accurate that you can be?

Dude, right on queue.

If you have definite knowledge 6 seconds have elapsed, I think you should take 6 seconds off. I'm putting the ball in with 18 seconds in this case, minus any time I counted after that (as the Juggler said).

Once I notice the clock hasn't started, I'm giving a visual count until I can kill the play myself.

OK ... this is all good. But, what would you do or what does the rule say to do in this situation?

It was first noticed that the clock had not started when Team A was attempting a 3 ... "you are the ref" - what do you do in this circumstance from this point on?

I allow the shot because it is attacking the basket. The play is killed when someone obtains possession of the reound, or the shot goes in. I check with my P what definite kowledge s/he has. I add his answer with mine, subtracting the union time we might have. I tell both coaches what we have, let each one ask a question, then instruct the timer to reset the clock to x seconds. They we admin the throw-in and go from there. When the throw-in happens, I tell the players how much time is on the clock.

Juggling Ref ... that's what happened and went well. My last question is do the rules support that or say something else? Thanks!

An earlier post said there is no rule that supports taking time off the clock?

In the absence of any definite knowledge

The rules only allow you to take time off that you "know" should have elapsed. Any and all counts are "known" elements and can be used to determine the time to be removed. There is nothing that says the counts must be continuous nor that they account for all of the missing time but you can't remove the time that was not under a count.

I agree with you, but not all do.
Since definite knowledge isn't defined, it's frankly up to a bit of interpretation.

I think we all agree (and so does the NFHS according to previous statements) that timing accuracy is only relevant in the closing moments of a period/game....no one cares about 2-3 seconds with 6:15 left in the 2nd quarter. Furthermore, no one cares about 3-4 seconds in the closing minute of a 30 point blowout. So, all relevant situatoins are end-of-quarter or end-of-game when the score is "close".

Let's pose a play:

11 seconds to go in a tie game. Throwin for A goes to A1 in the backcourt but the clock doesn't start. A1, under pressure, has the ball in the BC for 8 seconds when A1 completes a pass to an open/unguarded A2 just across the division line. After a moment, B2 obtains a guarding position within 6' and agressively and successfully contains B2...the count gets to 4 when A2 passes to a cutting A4 who dribbles twice and lays the ball in.

What's the call?

1. Count the bucket....if so, what next?
2. Go to OT.

None of the above.

The official who administered the throw-in gets their a$$ kicked &/or cussed out for not glancing at the clock after chopping time in.

and/or wet towel whipped for 10 minutes after the game....

Fair enough, but now that we're in the mess, what is done to resolve it?

Seems pretty straight-forward to me. We get together as crew to exchange information while the crowd is yelling so loud it's hard to hear each other. We determine we know that there were 11 seconds on the clock, and that we have definite knowledge that 12 seconds elapsed before the shot was released (8 second backcourt count and 4 second closely-guarded count). Therefore we get both coaches together in front of the table, wave off the layup, explain we're going to OT and why, tell the table to put the required amount of time up, then send both teams back to their benches to prepare for the OT.

We then get together as a crew to determine where the R is buying the after-game libations, since it's their fault we went to OT.

Is that how you would handle it?

Can't argue with that. It's exactly how it should be handled.

-Josh

Ok, now how would you handle the exact same situation, except the clock had 13 seconds on it at the time of the throw-in?

I would handle it the way you proposed, but there are those that argue you can't touch the clock in any way if you have any gaps in your counts and would continue with 11 seconds on the clock after counting the basket and giving B the ball for a throwin as after any goal.

I can see the rationale for that side, but it just doesn't make any sense to me to not take off any time at all. Besides, 5-10-2 says, "If the referee determines that the clock was not started or stopped properly, or if the clock did not run, an official's count or other official information can be used to make a correction." That's exactly what I did - I made a correction based on the count(s). I can't make a correction on the rest of the time because I don't have any count or official information. That rule doesn't say, "...relative to all of the time in question..." or something similar.

I believe you have to account for the time you have definite knowledge was used during the play. If you have twelve seconds of visual counts, IMO you have to reduce the time on the clock by that much.

-Josh

So B gets the ball after the made basket with 1 second left.

The real problem is if A was down by 1 with 11 seconds left when the cluster ffff started.

You may also go ahead and request your police escort now.

I'm not saying it's an easy call to make but it's the right call IMO. One team is always going to be upset after a close game and, unfortunately, this puts the officiating crew right in the center of the fire. Admit that their was a timing error and this is the corrective action. Owning up to the error is the only way to deal with this situation IMO. Unless there is a rule I am unaware of, this is the solution that the rules support for FED.

-Josh

Sometimes we have to earn our pay. Step up, use your b_lls and make the call. ;)

Agreed. It's an easier call if you can send them to overtime by rule. Let them finish it on the court.

Slightly more difficult to count the basket and give the defense the ball, down by one, with one second left. They should have played better defense.

Much more difficult if you have to take the basket away and end the game with the final offensive team down by one.

Oddly enough, leaving 11 seconds on the clock, counting the basket, and giving the ball to the non-scoring team may not be a bad option either, from a common sense perspective. While I don't find the argument that the rule support this response very persuasive, I can see the appeal of the solution.

Oh I never bring my own balls, I make the school furnish them ;)

It is a toughy. It's definitely one of those situations I hope to avoid in my career. Thanks to discussions like these, many of us can talk through what should be done and, hopefully, we can put to use if it were to ever happen.

-Josh

Ah, you're one of them "common sense" people. Better to make sure the participants don't feel bad. Wouldn't want that. But, how could you make the decision that one team scores a basket without any time coming off the clock? That's just not fair. The only fair way is do the whole play over. Wouldn't want one team to feel bad that they might not have had the same chances as the other team. That's the only common sense thing to do.

You're probably one of the parents that complained their kid wasn't getting a fair shake when facing this pitcher in baseball:
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,410162,00.html

;)

Dan told me to tell you to STFU. Woody agreed.

I'd say it myself, but I don't want to follow Woody into the fires of Hades.

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I heard about the CN Little League banning this little fella from pitching because he's too good at it. Mike Golic was brutal with them this morning.

I prefer to use my whistle.

Thanks anyway, Juggler.