Visible Count Mechanics
 

Looking for some opinions/guidance on showing the 10-second count (I am relatively new to basketball officiating). When I first started, I counted all 10 seconds with individual arm movements - and did the same on my 5-second inbounds count. Then had a supervisor tell me that it looks stupid with my arm moving back and forth that fast and to switch to an out (1 second) and in (1 second) motion.

I've tried doing that but it feels strange - especially on the 5-second. Yet when I go back to my old method and try not to move fast, I find my 10-second count is closer to 12-13.

Any tips? And do you always start a 10-second visible count when the ball is in backcourt, or do you keep it in your head unless there is defensive pressure or you get to 6 or 7 and the ball hasn't crossed yet?

Thanks!

1. Your supervisor's an idiot.

2. When in Rome, give to Caesar....

Your supervisor said to do what?!!!? I don't think my brain and arms could coordinate such a count.

You are a new official so need to learn how to do everything properly. Visible count in the back court, most definitely. And it's 1-second per arm extension. You'll learn that coaches are paying attention to such things.

Always keep a visual count is what I've always been instructed. As for one hand moment is really two seconds...ummm...see above.

-Josh

1. Your supervisor's wrong. It doesn't look stupid, it looks accurate.
2. Always show a visible count!

True story: I'm coaching in a provincial semi and the Trail wasn't using a visible count. This was the first year that coaches could request timeouts. My PG wasn't near half when 8 seconds had gone by (clock was my proof) and I requested a TO to prevent the violation. Tweet - 10 second violation. I asked him how he knew that there was a 10 second violation if he wasn't counting. He replied "I was counting". "No you weren't: you didn't have a visible count". "I'm not required to." You can imagine how that sits with any coach. Then I asked him how it could be 10s violation if only 8 seconds came off the clock? Another blank stare.

Practice your visible count, be accurate, and always show a visible count.

Imo, never be less than 10, but aim on the side of too long than too quick. Between 10 and 11 is best.

So A5 rebounds B1s missed FT & gives it to A1 per coaches request "Give it to a guard"!! Team Bs coach is screaming "Get back on D" now the only ones in the BC are you & the dribbler. You're clicking all the way to the division line?

Same sitch but after a made basket?

I do, for various reasons. Primarily, I've had enough point guards sit back and take their time crossing the line. Typically, when I get close to 8 or 9, coach is already yelling at his pg to cross. The few times I've made this 10 second call, the coaches lit into the pg's; not saying a word to me. It's not only the right call, it's the expected call.
Of course, I can't speak for your area (yet).

thanks guys, I will work on my 10-sec arm movements, make them fluid and not seem rushed. You never know with supervisors..............

I hear you Snaqs... does anyone know if this practice varies from HS to NCAA?

No decision as of yet? If you do come to the Metro area, it would be a good idea to get your resume & game tapes to the assignors in September before the October draw. Addresses can be obtained from the CHSAA website.

Only time I don't see a visible b/c count is in NCAA-W (which has no count) and the NBA (I'm assuming they use the shot or game clock).

Okay, so using the shot clock for BC violations is a pro mechanic/philosophy. Working in the Pro-Am this summer, the vets (NCAA & CBA guys) said when the 24 second shot clock strikes 16 you have a BC violation as opposed to counting (with or w/out pressure).

I guess I better start getting my hand up on OOB violations as well :(
It was so nice to just point & verbalize.

Yes. What if you have a timing error? You need the count to fix it unless you are working a D1 game with a courtside monitor.

x2

NCAA-W this is not true.

I do not claim to know the rules on the women's side very well if at all, so I ask if you have no monitor and no visible count how would you fix an error? Guess?

Well, "guess" is pretty harsh, but essentially, yes. You go through the play and come up with the best approximation you can.

Example: Team B-52, Team A-51. 4.0 seconds remain.

A1 throws it into A2, who takes 3 dribbles, and passes to A3. A3 takes another two dribbles, shot fakes, goes up, and gets fouled in the act of shooting.

Clock still says 4.0. We are idiots and never realized the clock did not start.

NFHS ruling- shoot two with 4.0 on the clock.
NCAA-W ruling- determine how much time should have come off of the clock and adjust it accordingly. If it is more than 4.0 (and in this case it sounds like it probably was), game over. B wins. Drive home safely.

I can not speak for the NCAA-M ruling.

That's also how I do it.

I can't imagine why anyone would suggest that. I suppose if it became the new NFHS mechanic, I would adjust; but it's not. So just count 1 swing per second, IMHO.

13 is probably too slow. But I would rather be a little slow than a little fast. A few years ago at camp, a D1 assignor asked us to close our eyes and raise our hands when we reached a 10-second count. He said the results were anywhere from 8 seconds to about 13. He said he didn't like 13, but he liked it a lot better than 8.

If there's no defensive pressure at all and it's obvious that the offense is going to push it to the frontcourt, then I might not have a count. Other than that, I always have a backcourt count.

In Massachusetts, we use a shot clock. It's not always run properly. But if you have a good shot clock operator, and you know that team control was established on the first touch after the throw-in, then the shot clock can be a big help with your 10-second count. Those are two very big "ifs", though.

I'm guessing your supervisor went on snipe hunts.

How far do you swing your arm? Do you move your upper arm, or just your lower arm?

Try moving just your lower arm, and move it "not as far" -- you can move it slower and still have each swing take a second.

Beautiful!

IIRC Frasier got the last laugh in that episode, though.

Elbow straight out, about shoulder level, and just the lower end of the arm going in and out, I do switch arms each time the ball passes to another player in backcourt. Can't remember who told me to do that, but it is a habit now.

I'd recommend against that. Switching arms generally indicates you've started your count over, such as when a dribbler crosses from backcourt to front court while closely guarded. There's no reason to switch arms while the ball is in the backcourt.

Anytime you have a new count you should switch arms. Using the same arm just causes confusion even if there are a few seconds between counts.

Peace

The preferred arm swing motion in my area is to:
- use your right arm
- tuck your right hand firmly underneath your arm pit
- lower your elbow from a horizontal position downwards towards your hip to start the count
- raise your elbow back up to horizontal position to complete a full second
- at the count of ten, the officials are to blow their whistles multiple times while running to the center court line, waving both hands with all 10 fingers extended

Important point of emphasis for this rule and mechanic: Only call the violation until the last few possessions of a tight game. After that, you have to let the players decide the game. Also, make sure to call it both ways.

True story.

thanks for the tips, most helpful!!

Agreed, and that's how I do it. Fritz stated he switched arms when the ball changed players in the backcourt. You don't get a new count here, so you shouldn't switch arms.

Dangit, Koach, I started to take your post seriously and was about to respond to your first rule....

Yeah, you are right. I was more responding to what you were saying, but now I see the context of your statements. The backcourt count would be the same count anyway, so you should not switch hands.

Peace

And I was waiting for him to add the part about if there are two or more players in backcourt, the left arm should come up as well so as to count along with the right arm...................

I believe that's call the Chicken Dance.

I also believe Billy will be along soon with a picture to demonstrate.

Now that would just be silly, and frankly, a mockery of the game. Like the time I was coaching 8th grade ball about 12 years ago and we were playing a team where most of the players on both teams were friends. Last game of the year, last game of the middle school careers(!). With about 3 minutes left in the game, I believe my team was losing by about 25+ or so, I requested a time out that was granted by the officials (High school age volunteers). During the time out huddle, our best player took off his jersey and placed it on his 5th grade little brother, who looked exactly like him but about 9 inches shorter. Coming out of the time out, we inbound the ball to the little brother, both teams are just laughing and having a great time, little bro puts on a dazzling ball-handling exhibition for about 30 seconds, and HE WAS IN THE BACKCOURT THE WHOLE TIME!!!

call it both ways, i tell ya... call it both ways...

BTW. the little one became one of my best players several years later when I coached him in High School.

Good story. :)

I Believe, Yes, I Believe ...
 

Let's see how many technical fouls MTD can find in this post. :D

Of course it'd look stupid - to someone who's been doing it WRONG for so many years.

I thought I'd heard/read every possible dumb evaluator comment or suggestion possible. Until now.

I'm surprised none of your partners or other officials haven't pulled you aside and asked what the heck you were doing.

Sure. Give that evaluator a brochure for the nearest rookie camp. :D

A number of years ago when my folks lived in Western NY I took my kids to a minor league game in Rochester vs the Toledo Mud Hens. The Famous Chicken was there. He was dancing up and down the first base line flashing a centerfold at the Mud Hen southpaw who was working from the stretch. His next pitch hit the ground in front of the plate and caught catcher Rey Palacios square. He must've forgot his cup, because he ended up leaving the game.

1. Notice I "requested a time out that was granted by the officials"
2. "player took off his jersey" on the bench - Technical foul
3. Player not in the book enters game (little bro) - Technical foul
4. 30 second ball-handling display in backcourt - 10 second violation

Sounds like taunting.:D




T

I alwas have the visible going and how this guy is being told to 1-out, 2-in...no...it's 1 for one arm extenstion.

I called a 10s vio with under 30s left in a game not long ago where the PG was loafing coming back up the floor. PG couldn't believe it but the Coach didn't say anything....vio is a vio regardless of time on the clock.

I've called the lolly-gagging 10 second violation before, too. Invariably, the coach is yelling at his point guard.

[QUOTE=Fritz]... had a supervisor tell me that it looks stupid with my arm moving back and forth that fast and to switch to an out (1 second) and in (1 second) motion.

___________________________

You're kidding right? A supervisor didn't really tell you that did he? You just made that up to start discussion, right? Please tell me he didn't really say that.

Nope, not making it up, really! Asked a couple of regular partners about it as well and they also roll their eyes at this guy. He is a new person in our area, supposedly was a super in another locale and the league agreed to let him do some here as well. What I am waiting on is a chance to see him actually work a game and see if he really does the out-1, in-2 count.

Visible count count.
 

What are the situations that the Federation says the official will use a visible count.

"Practice your visible count, be accurate, and always show a visible count."

In order to maintain an accurate count, I count 1001, 1002, 1003, etc. I am always within 1 second accuracy. That way a coach can't point to clock to prove you have an inaccurate visible count. Hope this helps. ;)

5-seconds to inbound
10-seconds back court
5-seconds closely guarded
10-seconds to shoot a FT (although the "visible count" is different, here)

NOT 3-seconds in the lane.

When In Rome, Get Your Bible Citation Correct ...
 

Mark 12:17 "And Jesus said to them, "Render to Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and to God the things that are God's." And they were amazed at Him"

If I'm not mistaken, a visible count is called for in all situations with the exception of the 3 second count.