Right. And I think the play presented is also "circumventing the rule" -- so, I think the same logic applies.

(snip)

Quote:

Additionally, what does case 4.43.5B have to do with lifting the pivot before releasing on a pass or try? I'm not sure I see the connection Bob seems to be making.

The case has might not have anything to do with lifting the pivot foot. I just used it (a) in response to a specific question, and (b) to show that placing the ball on the floor is equivalent to holding the ball. Thus, the rest of 4-43 applies to the situation (4-43 applies only when holding the ball)

Quote:

And since when is it a violation to lift the pivot before releasing the ball on a pass or try? Obviously, I've missed Bob's real point somehow. Are you equating the original play with the following?

Sorry -- that should be "violation to lift the pivot foot except before releasing the ball on a pass or try."

So, I say that there's no difference between getting the ball while lying on the floor or while standing up, and then placing the ball on the floor, moving the pivot foot, then retouching the ball.

Hope that's clearer.
(snip)

Much clearer, thanks, Bob. Now I have to go read it again and see if it's right -- er, see if I agree with it! :D

Chuck

Re: Yes, I believe it is possible.
 

"May the fleas of a thousand camels nestle upon your crotch."

Please note that this is an example,not a response to your post,mick(I think)!:D

Re: Re: Yes, I believe it is possible.
 

"May all of the teeth in your head fall out, except one, so that you may have a toothache."


"May the fleas of a thousand camels nestle upon your crotch."

I stand corrected. Now I'll know what to do when I here a coach putting these curses on me.

Re: Re: Yes, I believe it is possible.
 

JR,
What you have quoted is obviously a curse which is regularly put on MLB players.
Please keep your comments confined to hoops.
Thank you.
mick

uh, ...got any extra power powder?

Basically what I have is a violation. Call it a travel or double dribble, whatever. I think that once a player puts the ball to the floor and leaves the area of the ball it becomes more than an interruption. When a player has
control, he has three options pass dribble or shoot. He puts the ball on the floor and then leaves the area. As a result, I think one must rule this a dribble because its not a pass or shot. Question becomes whether the dribble
ever started or if it ended by him putting it down. I have a hard time believing there was an interruption when he leaves the area of the ball. Its a weird
play either way.

B,
With a determination like that, I think you oughta apply to the rules committee. It was vague and touched the point. ;)
mick

So, essentially, you're saying you don't know what it is but you're going to call it a violation.

Is this the type of thing that you teach at the camps that you work at? :(

Touching the ball to the floor with two hands, (setting it down in this case) does not constitute the beginning of a dribble. If
all the other players are dumb enough to let it lay on the floor while A1 runs around, oh well! I don't see how a violation can be called on A1 if he then picks it up and dribbles.

Thats the whole problem here. It is a weird play and very strange. What I was saying is, I BELIEVE it is sometype of violation, but I am not totally sure what kind. I think some of us need to understand that officiating the game of basketball is not always black and white and there are surely some gray areas involved, as we have discussed and hashed on this board. This is surely one of them. And to answer your question, no I don't teach this kind of stuff at camp and was very offended by that response. I teach the fundamentals of 3 person mechanics, game management, floor positioning, floor coverage, how break down tape, and so forth. I don't profess to be an expert on the weird and dicey plays that may or may not be covered under the rules of play. That is exactly why we post plays like this, is to get discussion on them. Why would I post a play that is obvious to all? That would be a waste of time. Example: player catches the ball and takes 4 steps towards the basket. What would you call? This is a black and white and not gray area type of play.

This play was sent to me via email and I thought I would post to generate some good discussion. I don't know if there is a right or wrong answer on it. Thats why I haven't responded to other peoples answers on it.

Have a good day.

BBarnky,
This was a great thing to post and I think it brings out a lot of different opinions on the way people see and judge the game. Situations like these that are brought up defintely do help young officials like myself think about the game and realize that it is more than just calling the obvious hack or travel.

Hey, don't get to offended by the camp comment. The oppurtunity that I had to briefly get feedback from yourself was great. You can tell that you appreciate the game of basketball for what it is and that you understand it very well. I appreciate all of your work at the recent camp as a clinican and hope to see you in the future. Keep posting interesting plays like the one in this forum, I want to keep growing as an official and thinking through plays like these will surely help.


iref21

While I think that I now understand Bob J.'s thinking on this play, I just don't think that I can apply one sentence in what seems to be an exception for the purposes of one play in the case book and apply it to this particular situation. The differences are sufficient to make me think that the two plays (viz., this GPS and gaining possession while on the floor) are apples and oranges.

So, I am sticking with my original answer, especially now that Drake and TH have chimed in and agreed with it. :) I'd feel a lot better if Bob agreed with me too. But you can't have everything.

Where would you put it?

There's no violation on the play in question.

Chuck

Iref21,
Thanks for the nice comments, I very much appreciate them and I do love the game of basketball. The negativity I see throughout our officiating community really bothers me and gets on my nerves. I really feel I am a rather easy person to get along with and referee with. But when others bring up negativity about myself, other officials, etc., I get really frustrated with it. After all, we are all on the same team, right? At least, that is what I would like to believe. However, there are always people out there bitter with the process for whatever reason.
Again, thanks for your nice comments. Let me know if you are interested in coming to Daytona, as that is a great experience for you as well. I attended there three straight times as a camper and I can say personally that is where I developed my fundamentals and learned how to referee the right way.

BBarnaky

iref21, bbarnaky, and others,
it is nice to know that thinking about weird plays and disccusing the gray area is fundamental in growth and adaption to change. some people on this board obviously already know everything and know the best way to handle every situation. that is why they have advanced to the highest levels of the game and feel a need to mock or scorn at the simple plays that we discuss without giving solid defense or logic to back their take on the play. as we will be patient and attend camps, and learn, and grow, one day we will be able to criticize and chuckle at the stupid simple plays that other non-senior members post on the board because we have reached the 2343 post mark. and only then will we be the greatest.

Hey, why would you want to criticize me?!?! Oh, "chuckle". Not "ChuckE". . .

Never mind :D

Chuck