Ok. Had somebody send this to me. What do you guys think. Will post my answer later. By the way crew and eroe39 cannot answer either, as I have already sent them via email. You two guys can answer after we've had some responses. Here it goes:

Referee is in trail and in the last minute of the first half and team A is holding for last shot...Team B does not come out to challenge Team A that is holding out front near midcourt line...so the guard for Team A puts the ball down on the floor, leaves it there, and proceeds to walk around leisurely for 15 seconds or so before going back to the
ball, picking it up and dribbling to initiate the last play...

Officials call nothing, and after the game, they disagree with what the right call would be...

WHAT DO YOU HAVE ON THIS??

Without consulting the book, this is nothing, I think. Putting the ball on the floor isn't the start of a dribble, so it's not a double dribble. When he walks around the ball, he doesn't have control, so it's not a travel. It's dumb, but I don't think it's illegal.

Chuck

What do I have? I have worked my last game because now I
have seen EVERYTHING! :rolleyes:

GPS Play, Haven't had one in awhile
 

Don't Call Anything You Can't Explain!

I have a T on Team B's head coach. He's cursing profanely at his players for not going after the ball! :)

Other than that, I agree with Chuck. I have nothing.

Ever think there might be a good reason why we haven't had a GPS in a long time? :D

BTW, I agree. (With the exception of 7 T's - one to B's head coach, then 1 to A1 and 1 each to B1-5 for playing without required equipment, i.e., their brains!)

Illegal dribble.
mick

Illegal dribble?
 

Why Illegal dribble?

I hope I did not hurt your feelings? :D

Peace

O.K. I'm lost here. Where does the longitude and latitude of the player come into play here. I saw GPS and got excited since I just bought a new Global Positioning System and wanted to try it out.

Re: Illegal dribble?
 

Shucks, Rut. Thanks for being so concerned for my feelings.

I am only guessing that the player released the ball to the floor and then picked it up to end his dribble, and then illegally dribbled again. ;)

mick

Isn't this basically passing the ball to yourself? I'm with mick but I'm not sure I would be able to explain it.

This happened in my son's middle school game last year. The ball handler set the ball on the floor to tie his shoe. The defense couldn't come out past the three point line to get the ball. The ref even kept the ball from rolling away for the kid. The clock just kept on ticking...

Illegal dribble?
 

No problem Mick. Anything for you!!! ;)

Peace

Section 18. Dribble
Art. 1. A dribble is ball movement caused by a player in control who bats, pushes or taps the ball to the playing court once or several times.

Art. 4. The dribble ends when:
a. The dribbler catches or carries/palms the ball by allowing it to
come to rest in one or both hands.

1st, its not a travel b/c he's not holding the ball.

Now we get to the difinitions of a dribble, which brings us to the difinition of PUSHING THE BALL to the floor. By difinition a PUSH implies the application of force... Key word FORCE. Setting the ball on the floor does not take force b/c of gravity. So, i have a no call.

Was he dribbling before he put the ball down? Or did he just get a pass?

Cornellref, I assumed he just receive a pass b/c this wouldn't be much of a question if he had already dribbled. You are correct, there was some important info left out.

Well analyze it both ways.

In this situation however assume he is holding the ball and still has his dribble. He then bends over and places the ball on the floor and walks away.

I think there is surely a violation if a player has his dribble and then places it on the floor, walks away, and then comes back retrieves it and dribbles again.

Assume here is still has his dribble and is holding the ball in the front court by the midcourt line area, for the "last shot."

I would say that this is a double dribble... Clarify this for me but wouldn't this be similar to the situation where Offender A (who is in possesion of the ball) rips through the defender to clear himself and while in the process bangs the ball on the floor. After this sequence of events the defender steps back and the offender proceeds to drive to the basket. Tweet... Double Dribble!!

Similar play happened to me this year except the player set the ball on the floor, wiped his hands off on his shorts, then picked the ball up and passed it. In my situation, no violation. NBA Referee Don Vaden was at my game when it happened and we discussed the scenario after the game. Had the player in my game dribbled, I would have called a double dribble.

In the situation in the original post, there is a violation... illegal dribble.

Should we distinguish a difference between, a) A1 has both hands on the underside of the ball and lowers his hands to the floor until the ball is resting on the floor and then removing his hands, thus not pushing the ball to the floor. b) both hands on the upper side of the ball and lowering the ball to the floor and then releasing the ball, thus calling this pushing the ball to the floor for the start of a dribble?

Bart,
Thats the whole point. Some clarification is needed to determine whether this player ever started a dribble and, if he did, whether his dribble ended.

Things that make you say hmmm.....

Bangs the ball to the floor?

Yes i agree that is the point, the start of the dribble. There is nothing in the rule about not being allow to rest the ball on the floor. I guess if the official determines he pushed to ball vs letting the ball gravitate to the floor then you could have a start of a dribble. Which brings the play of a player diving to the floor grabbing the ball for control, then resting the ball on the floor, then getting up, then grabbing the ball again. What do you call?

1- The original post said nothing about dribbling the ball prior to sitting it on the floor. It said he was holding the ball.

2- Sitting the ball on the floor is not a dribble. If it was, it would be legal to gain position while having a knee touching the floor, sit the ball on the floor, rise to one's feet and retireve the ball. We know that's illegal but it is legal to begin a dribble from the same position. That tells us that sitting the ball on the floor is not the beginning of a dribble.

Therefore, this is not an illegal or double dribble. As has been said, there's no PC, so there's no travel.

No violation.

Travelling. FED 4.43.5B

And, I think that provides the answer to the original question.

The only way the case is travelling is if "placing the ball on the floor" (in some sort of controlled manner) is equivalent to "holding the ball."

Thus, I'd have a traveling violation in the original case for lifting the pivot foot before the ball was released on a pass or try. (The violation occurs when A touches the ball again.)

That's pretty clever, Bob!

So this play has less to do with difinitions and more to do with the case play of 4.43.5b. Hmmm Is this how you see it?

I see the point of bringing up the case play, but I've always thought of that as being a sort of "exception" that was put in to prevent a player from intentionally circumventing a rule. It seems like they didn't want to change the definition of travelling, but they realized that, as written, the rule allowed a player to weasel out of this situation. So they put in that one sentence.

I personally don't like applying it to the play in the original post. I could be wrong, obviously, but I still have nothing on the original play.

Additionally, what does case 4.43.5B have to do with lifting the pivot before releasing on a pass or try? I'm not sure I see the connection Bob seems to be making.

And since when is it a violation to lift the pivot before releasing the ball on a pass or try? Obviously, I've missed Bob's real point somehow. Are you equating the original play with the following?

"A1 jumps to attempt a try, but seeing that it will be blocked, drops the ball to the floor, where A1 is the first to recover the ball."

If so, then at least I see the connection you're trying to make, although I haven't had time to think it all the way through.

Chuck

[Edited by ChuckElias on Apr 19th, 2002 at 03:37 PM]

I'm just curious,is it possible to curse at someone without doing it profanely. If so then I hope coaches never find out about it. I think you meant to say "cursing at his players profusely".

As to the original sitch, I have nothing based on what play was described. I do recall in the casebook, where you cannot place the ball on the floor to get up and then pick it up once you are standing. This is considered a pass to one's self. And simply touching the ball to the floor is not considered a dribble. Again, if you can't explain it, don't call it.

Yes, I believe it is possible.
 

<i>Apologizing for being off-subject, but I feel the need to answer this question.</i>


From a book of curses, I forget the name of the book:

"May all of the teeth in your head fall out, except one, so that you may have a toothache."



mick

Right. And I think the play presented is also "circumventing the rule" -- so, I think the same logic applies.

(snip)

Quote:

Additionally, what does case 4.43.5B have to do with lifting the pivot before releasing on a pass or try? I'm not sure I see the connection Bob seems to be making.

The case has might not have anything to do with lifting the pivot foot. I just used it (a) in response to a specific question, and (b) to show that placing the ball on the floor is equivalent to holding the ball. Thus, the rest of 4-43 applies to the situation (4-43 applies only when holding the ball)

Quote:

And since when is it a violation to lift the pivot before releasing the ball on a pass or try? Obviously, I've missed Bob's real point somehow. Are you equating the original play with the following?

Sorry -- that should be "violation to lift the pivot foot except before releasing the ball on a pass or try."

So, I say that there's no difference between getting the ball while lying on the floor or while standing up, and then placing the ball on the floor, moving the pivot foot, then retouching the ball.

Hope that's clearer.
(snip)

Much clearer, thanks, Bob. Now I have to go read it again and see if it's right -- er, see if I agree with it! :D

Chuck

Re: Yes, I believe it is possible.
 

"May the fleas of a thousand camels nestle upon your crotch."

Please note that this is an example,not a response to your post,mick(I think)!:D

Re: Re: Yes, I believe it is possible.
 

"May all of the teeth in your head fall out, except one, so that you may have a toothache."


"May the fleas of a thousand camels nestle upon your crotch."

I stand corrected. Now I'll know what to do when I here a coach putting these curses on me.

Re: Re: Yes, I believe it is possible.
 

JR,
What you have quoted is obviously a curse which is regularly put on MLB players.
Please keep your comments confined to hoops.
Thank you.
mick

uh, ...got any extra power powder?

Basically what I have is a violation. Call it a travel or double dribble, whatever. I think that once a player puts the ball to the floor and leaves the area of the ball it becomes more than an interruption. When a player has
control, he has three options pass dribble or shoot. He puts the ball on the floor and then leaves the area. As a result, I think one must rule this a dribble because its not a pass or shot. Question becomes whether the dribble
ever started or if it ended by him putting it down. I have a hard time believing there was an interruption when he leaves the area of the ball. Its a weird
play either way.

B,
With a determination like that, I think you oughta apply to the rules committee. It was vague and touched the point. ;)
mick

So, essentially, you're saying you don't know what it is but you're going to call it a violation.

Is this the type of thing that you teach at the camps that you work at? :(

Touching the ball to the floor with two hands, (setting it down in this case) does not constitute the beginning of a dribble. If
all the other players are dumb enough to let it lay on the floor while A1 runs around, oh well! I don't see how a violation can be called on A1 if he then picks it up and dribbles.

Thats the whole problem here. It is a weird play and very strange. What I was saying is, I BELIEVE it is sometype of violation, but I am not totally sure what kind. I think some of us need to understand that officiating the game of basketball is not always black and white and there are surely some gray areas involved, as we have discussed and hashed on this board. This is surely one of them. And to answer your question, no I don't teach this kind of stuff at camp and was very offended by that response. I teach the fundamentals of 3 person mechanics, game management, floor positioning, floor coverage, how break down tape, and so forth. I don't profess to be an expert on the weird and dicey plays that may or may not be covered under the rules of play. That is exactly why we post plays like this, is to get discussion on them. Why would I post a play that is obvious to all? That would be a waste of time. Example: player catches the ball and takes 4 steps towards the basket. What would you call? This is a black and white and not gray area type of play.

This play was sent to me via email and I thought I would post to generate some good discussion. I don't know if there is a right or wrong answer on it. Thats why I haven't responded to other peoples answers on it.

Have a good day.

BBarnky,
This was a great thing to post and I think it brings out a lot of different opinions on the way people see and judge the game. Situations like these that are brought up defintely do help young officials like myself think about the game and realize that it is more than just calling the obvious hack or travel.

Hey, don't get to offended by the camp comment. The oppurtunity that I had to briefly get feedback from yourself was great. You can tell that you appreciate the game of basketball for what it is and that you understand it very well. I appreciate all of your work at the recent camp as a clinican and hope to see you in the future. Keep posting interesting plays like the one in this forum, I want to keep growing as an official and thinking through plays like these will surely help.


iref21

While I think that I now understand Bob J.'s thinking on this play, I just don't think that I can apply one sentence in what seems to be an exception for the purposes of one play in the case book and apply it to this particular situation. The differences are sufficient to make me think that the two plays (viz., this GPS and gaining possession while on the floor) are apples and oranges.

So, I am sticking with my original answer, especially now that Drake and TH have chimed in and agreed with it. :) I'd feel a lot better if Bob agreed with me too. But you can't have everything.

Where would you put it?

There's no violation on the play in question.

Chuck

Iref21,
Thanks for the nice comments, I very much appreciate them and I do love the game of basketball. The negativity I see throughout our officiating community really bothers me and gets on my nerves. I really feel I am a rather easy person to get along with and referee with. But when others bring up negativity about myself, other officials, etc., I get really frustrated with it. After all, we are all on the same team, right? At least, that is what I would like to believe. However, there are always people out there bitter with the process for whatever reason.
Again, thanks for your nice comments. Let me know if you are interested in coming to Daytona, as that is a great experience for you as well. I attended there three straight times as a camper and I can say personally that is where I developed my fundamentals and learned how to referee the right way.

BBarnaky

iref21, bbarnaky, and others,
it is nice to know that thinking about weird plays and disccusing the gray area is fundamental in growth and adaption to change. some people on this board obviously already know everything and know the best way to handle every situation. that is why they have advanced to the highest levels of the game and feel a need to mock or scorn at the simple plays that we discuss without giving solid defense or logic to back their take on the play. as we will be patient and attend camps, and learn, and grow, one day we will be able to criticize and chuckle at the stupid simple plays that other non-senior members post on the board because we have reached the 2343 post mark. and only then will we be the greatest.

Hey, why would you want to criticize me?!?! Oh, "chuckle". Not "ChuckE". . .

Never mind :D

Chuck

What have you got Crew?
 

We got:
<li> illegal dribble<li>traveling<li>nothing<li>something

Do you have a preferred call? ;)

mick

The best answer that I've seen so far is "if you can't explain it,don't call it." I can't explain it,so I got a "no call".I can see the logic on both sides that differ,though.Good question,even though you're never gonna see it.

Good advice from Jurassic. Problem is somebody saw it because thats why it was posted. It actually happened. That might be the best advice is just to stay away and not get involved in a play that is as weird as this one.

mick,
i would call an illegal dribble. the player controlled the ball to the floor, which in my opinion is the start of a dribble, and then picked the ball up. the player is legal thus far in my judgement but when he starts his "normal" dribbling motion i would call it an illegal dribble or double dribble.

Section 18. Dribble
Art. 1. A dribble is ball movement caused by a player in control who bats, pushes or taps the ball to the playing court once or several times.

Art. 4. The dribble ends when:
a. The dribbler catches or carries/palms the ball by allowing it to come to rest in one or both hands.

If this were done in the NBA then it is an obvious no-call. :eek: &nbsp; &nbsp;Â* What a dumb question. :D

But tony, you left out "Note 3" from the dribble definition:

". . .It is not a dribble when a player stands still and holds the ball and touches it to the floor once or more than once."

If that's not a dribble, then the player can still dribble after "recovering" the ball from the floor. I don't think you can sell this as a double dribble. The note pretty clearly states that it's not the start of a dribble.

Chuck

I'd call a double-dribble.

I don't buy the "no force" stuff because that suggests A1 can just drop the ball, move and grab it, and repeat all over the court.

I'd explain it by saying that the initial dribble started when A1 initiated contact of an <u>unheld</u> ball with the floor. After A1 again held the ball the initial dribble was ended. Then A1 initiated a second dribble. :cool:

I think the play is very similar to recovering a ball while on the floor, setting the ball down, getting up, then picking up the ball ("Walk"). Thus a "walk" could be called, but that seems more difficult to explain.

I'm not convinced this is an "interrupted dribble" because the ball did not inadvertantly escape control by A1. This is an intentional act and unless a defender touches the ball, I think it is still within player control.

I also expect to learn a couple of things on this one.... :)

Yes !
 

Thanks, crew,
Works for me. :)
mick

Chuck,
When the dribbler touches the ball to the floor, I have always thought the player is not releasing the ball to the floor.
... The player is still holding.
mick

i think the key word in the situation is release.

I gotta go with a travel for a couple reasons.

As Ogg astutely pointed out, if you have nothing, then A1 could systematically go all the way down the court by placing the ball next to him walking to the other side, picking it up and placing it again and again. This very good point immediately rules out a "no call."

IMO - A1 releases the ball onto the floor then runs around and receives the ball he has released onto the floor. Since A1 cannot pass the ball to himself, I have a travel. Once he releases the ball to the floor anyone but A1 can legally receive his pass.

Richard,
I'm with you.
I see the play no different than:

Player, who still has a dribble, releases a ball with a pass over a defender's head, then runs around the defender and catches the ball after it hit the floor, and then starts another dribble.

The only variation we have is the <u>precise movement</u> of the ball.
mick

This is not a good argument for declaring something illegal.

Quote:

IMO - A1 releases the ball onto the floor then runs around and receives the ball he has released onto the floor. Since A1 cannot pass the ball to himself, I have a travel. Once he releases the ball to the floor anyone but A1 can legally receive his pass.

Maybe I don't get what you're saying but it looks to me
like you are describing a dribble. Can't travel during a dribble.

BBarnaky, you can ber offended or you can be challenged. it's up to you. To say that you'd call traveling, a double dribble or "whatever," is just a bit short of offering a true interpretation. It's either nothing, traveling, illegal dribble, or double dribble. But it is not "whatever." If I make an interpretation, it's based upon a rule, not "whatever." This is a play that's not specifically covered by a case book play but when such things occur, we must apply the rules as they exist. We can't just offer "whatever."

Sorry if you were offended. But someone who is in a postion to teach, mold and critique officials, needs to be more confident than "whatever." JMHO

Dan_Ref - The player is releasing the ball in a way that does not meet the definition of a dribble. Since the player is moving with the ball without dribbling, I have a travel. There is no violation until he picks up the ball. What's the difference between the original question and A1, while standing, tosses the ball in the air, takes two steps, then catches the toss? Either on the floor or in the air, I believe this to be a pass. Mr Ogg's point merely illustrates an outcome of allowing the player put the ball on the floor, move, and recover it without dribbling.

Of course, we have mulled this over for a couple days now. This is better than 20-20 hindsight! If I saw this happen tomorrow, I would probably let it go just from the shock of seeing it happen.

I hate to be a nit-picker, but I would respectfully submit that the key word is "to", as in "release to the floor". Simply releasing the ball is not at issue. A dribble is batting or releasing the ball to the floor. Releasing the ball when the ball is already on the floor is not releasing the ball to the floor. Because of this, it can't be a dribble. So it can't be a double dribble to pick up the ball and start dribbling in this situation.

I still have nothing. :)

Chuck

I guess it's me, you, and Dan! :p

I'm not arguing the merits of the original play, which I
think is BS (and probably a no-call). All I'm saying is
that


A1 releases the ball onto the floor then runs around and receives the ball he has released onto the floor.

looks a lot like a dribble, unless you're saying A1 somehow
catches the ball before it hits the floor. I'm also saying
your argument that it's gotta be illegal because it doesn't
sound right is not very strong. But I'll agree that we've
kicked this around WAY too much, I'll buy you a new hat if
either of us ever see this play happen outside of a
dicsussion forum (or before our 3rd beer at the local bar).

Anyway, it's been fun.

Great minds think alike! And speaking of unlikely events,
did you feel the earthquake Saturday morning Chuck? We're
about the same distance from the epicenter. Just lasted a
few seconds but it did cause my wall unit to commence
a-shakin'!

Whatinhell am I?Chopped liver?:confused:

Quite honestly, with 5 pages of posts, I had not read all of the "chopped liver!" :D

However, I will consider you as one of the chosen. :)

Anyone else think this is nothing?

Pate de Fois Gras, my friend, with extra truffles.

Well, fellas, when we work together, I'm sure we'll pre-game primaries. :)

I got it figured out.
If this ever happens in a game I'm working,
I'm finding a wet spot, piece of gum, ANYTHING, (made up, or real) so that I can hit the whistle, "my time."
Then I pick up the ball, and as I'm handing it to the thrower,
make a firm suggestion that "if he wants to stay in the game, don't do that s**t again!":D

Now that's the best answer yet!

AAACCKKK!! If you do that while the ball is still on the floor, you have to go to the arrow!!!!! :o

Chuck

No I don't. ELASTIC POWERS!:cool:
And if anybody complains, Whack em'!:D

Not true! While there is no player control, there is still team control! It's still A's ball. :p

While I agree that A is still in control, the rule actually doesn't address this specifically.
"A team is in control when a player is holding, dribbling, or passing the ball."
That's why I stated the elastic powers provision.

Doggonit, TH. You caught me again. Man, I hate that :(

Drake, you noted how team control is established (by holding, dribbling or passing), but Article 3 states that team control continues until :

a. The ball is in flight during a try or tap for goal,
b. An opponent secures control, or
c. The ball becomes dead.

So in our original situation, placing the ball on the floor doesn't fit into any of those categories. So it's still in the control of the team who placed it on the floor. No arrow. Good call, Tony.

chuck

Yeah, I didn't feel it was necessary to
state how team control ends, because nothing supported team control ending in THIS situation.

What if Player A is dribbling. Player A kills his dribble by continuing the dribble lower and lower until it stops, using only one hand. Wipes his shoes, combs his hair and gets the number of a cheerleader. Then slaps the ball with a different hand, the ball begins bouncing and off Player A goes.
In to original, it was not clear how the dribble was killed. My limited understanding of the rules would seem to indicate double dribble if the player killed the dribble by putting both hands on the ball as they put it on the floor. Then picked it up and dribbled.
Of course I am not sure why any player would WANT to do this.

Listen, Irwin (I know, only your mother calls you Irwin). . . we'd pretty much worked through this and beaten it to death. And now you throw a monkey wrench into things. Ok, I'll give it a shot.
I have nothing on this. Remember that the dribble only ends when

a. the dribbler catches or causes the ball to come to rest in one or both hands,
b. the dribbler palms/carries the ball by allowing to come to rest in one or both hands,
c. the dribbler simultaneously touches the ball with both hands,
d. an opponent bats. . . the ball, or
e. the ball becomes dead.

Since none of these things happened while Player A was dribbling the ball, the play you describe, Mr. Cocktoasten, seems perfectly legal, as long as the dribbler doesn't pick up the ball in such a way that it is resting in his hand(s).

Dr. Rosenrosen, holding the ball and touching it to the floor does not constitute a dribble. So if the player simply sets the ball down (without dribbling first), it is my opinion there is no violation committed when he picks it back up.

Now, I have to get my car from the shop b/c my wife hit a water buffalo the other night. Would you help me out and send me the Underhill's credit card number?

Chuck

No call.

But in the original post I assumed the player ...
And on THIS I called a double-dribble.

After eating a steak sandwich and bloody mary.....

Why anyone would want to dribble the ball, place the ball on the ground, walk around and dribble again is beyond me. But, we at the Mattress Police have to think on such things. I think the key is whether the player was dribbling before placing the ball on the ground. The play I described was, not only a spitting image of my uncle's spleen, not a violation.
Always good to hear a few lines. Now I have to go figure out what I was doing in Utah this morning

I love your body, Larry! :D

Man, I love that silly movie!!!! Now, go get me some ball bearings. . .

Hey Irwin,
You STAY in Utah!

Do I need to eat a steak sandwich and bloody mary to understand what you wrote?

No, you just have to watch the movie "Fletch" about 1,000 times :D

Chuck

OOooooooKKkky, at least now i know i didn't miss anything.