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-   -   Question about more unwritten rules... (https://forum.officiating.com/basketball/46506-question-about-more-unwritten-rules.html)

icallfouls Tue Jul 22, 2008 03:29pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Odd Duck
First...let's all agree I worded that very badly :(

The point I was attempting to make is that the appearance of the official...the first impressions made when arriving at the site and on the floor...can earn an official the benefit of the doubt UNTIL the game starts and he/she has to start making calls.

Maybe this example from last weekend will help. I was at a camp and there was a young kid attending. He could run like a deer but he almost looked like a homeless person...looked like he drug his shoes on the camp behind his car, pants and shirt didn't fit well, 2 day growth worth of beard, hair was a mess...you get the picture. Off the floor, while most others wore nice shorts and polo/golf shirts he was in stained t-shirts. Everyone was "whispering" about him...clinicians, campers, coaches and fans. Every game he had problems with the coaches until they realized he was a decent official...young and a little raw, but decent and he had good judgement. If he had looked professional there is a good chance the early part of his games would have been smoother.

This in not to toot my horn but I am a big guy. However, I make a point to always arrive at the site in a jacket (if not wearing a tie) even though it is not requested. My uniform is always freshly cleaned and not wrinkled, always freshly shaven, hair well groomed, etc...180 degrees from the guy above. During the last day of the camp I was pulled to the side by a clinician (happens to be D1 mens official, so let's assume he knows what he is talking about when it comes to officiating). He said he had heard coaches and clinicians mention how looks could be deceiving and commenting positively on my officiating. Eavesdropping he heard one coach say, "Don't let his size fool you. He obviously take a professional approach and I can guarantee you he knows what he is doing, you only have to watch him to see." I took that with a grain of salt until he said he agreed...that it was obvious I knew I needed to make a good impression and had to be able to nail virtually any rules issue. Watching me work, he was amazed that he never saw me out of position to make the calls that needed to be made. I didn't get beat more than other, more fit, officials and that I did excellent work." After hearing that, I am of the opinion that the attention I pay to other things is causing many to decide to let my actions on the floor and my calls do the talking. That kid wasn't getting the luxury...he was behind before he even started.

Did that make sense or did I communicate poorly again?
damn you're good, oh wait you told us. :)

" 'ou look maaarvelous"

Your comments about appearance are true. A professional look upon arriving can give you some increased unknown level credibility, but looking good only goes so far. You have to get plays right or that cred is out the door in the first minute of the game.

edit:
Assignors want you to look good. Coaches want you to be good.

mu4scott Tue Jul 22, 2008 03:44pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee
Stalked? Nope...just kinda wondering what the point behind your post was. In my experience, what an official wears isn't really the determining factor as to whether that official is competent or not at the level they're working. Their supervisor will usually determine their dress code.

I've yet to see the pants blow a call anyway.:)
I think appearance is a very important factor. You may be the best official in the world, but if you look unproffesional and inadequate you will be treated as such. JMHO

I read this forum on a daily basis and obviously don't post much. I think I'm a part of the vast majority of people who want to get better and this forum helps a lot. It seems the tone of your responses at times falls into the category of belittling, mocking or ridiculing fellow officials for your own enjoyment.

I’ve learned a lot from this place (ex. no flat front pants) and it’s made me a better official. Please realize most of us come here to become more skilled and not all of us have mastered the art of officiating.

Scrapper1 Tue Jul 22, 2008 04:52pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by TravelinMan
What often separates the HS from the college refs is no more desire to work that level and the time to devote to travelling long distances to officiate a college game.
Often? Maybe. Just as often, it's talent, ability and hard work.

Quote:
Oh yeah and ego........
Oh yeah, because we've never met a high school official with a huge ego. :rolleyes: I'm sorry to be overly sarcastic, but I am so tired of hearing this. As a college guy who gets an occasional D2 game, I work with many many MANY more down-to-earth, easygoing, easy-to-get-along-with guys than head cases. Are there college officials with overblown egos? Absolutely. Are there just as many high-school-only officials with equally overblown egos? I've met my share.

I'm not putting down high school officials, because roughly a third of my schedule each year is still high school games. I do tire, however, of hearing my high school brethren pontificate on the egos of my college brethren. I've never heard a college guy say that a high school guy is less of an official or less talented because he only works high school games. When I've heard critical comments about high school officials from college officials, the comments are about mechanics, judgment, appearance, etc. Never about level of games.

Jurassic Referee Tue Jul 22, 2008 08:06pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by icallfouls
edit:
Assignors want you to look good. Coaches want you to be good.
Wrong.

Assignors want their officials to look good <b>and</b> be good. If their officials are, who cares what the coaches think.

Jurassic Referee Tue Jul 22, 2008 08:12pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scrapper1
Often? Maybe. Just as often, it's talent, ability and hard work.

Oh yeah, because we've never met a high school official with a huge ego. :rolleyes: I'm sorry to be overly sarcastic, but I am so tired of hearing this. As a college guy who gets an occasional D2 game, I work with many many MANY more down-to-earth, easygoing, easy-to-get-along-with guys than head cases. Are there college officials with overblown egos? Absolutely. Are there just as many high-school-only officials with equally overblown egos? I've met my share.

I'm not putting down high school officials, because roughly a third of my schedule each year is still high school games. I do tire, however, of hearing my high school brethren pontificate on the egos of my college brethren. I've never heard a college guy say that a high school guy is less of an official or less talented because he only works high school games. When I've heard critical comments about high school officials from college officials, the comments are about mechanics, judgment, appearance, etc. Never about level of games.
Well said. That's exactly why I was wondering what the real point of this thread was. Personally, I'd rather we accent the positive about our fellow officials...no matter the level worked... rather than looking for things to cringe at.

JRutledge Tue Jul 22, 2008 08:42pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scrapper1
Often? Maybe. Just as often, it's talent, ability and hard work.

Oh yeah, because we've never met a high school official with a huge ego. :rolleyes: I'm sorry to be overly sarcastic, but I am so tired of hearing this. As a college guy who gets an occasional D2 game, I work with many many MANY more down-to-earth, easygoing, easy-to-get-along-with guys than head cases. Are there college officials with overblown egos? Absolutely. Are there just as many high-school-only officials with equally overblown egos? I've met my share.

I'm not putting down high school officials, because roughly a third of my schedule each year is still high school games. I do tire, however, of hearing my high school brethren pontificate on the egos of my college brethren. I've never heard a college guy say that a high school guy is less of an official or less talented because he only works high school games. When I've heard critical comments about high school officials from college officials, the comments are about mechanics, judgment, appearance, etc. Never about level of games.
Some of the biggest egos I run up against are those of high school officials. Because many high school officials think they know every damn thing even though they might not be very accomplished at the high school level. For the most part most college officials are very confident individuals, but very easy to work with and for the most part are willing to work with just about anyone. I have had more big time high school officials try to big time me by referencing their state final accomplishments or they Sectional they worked. I only work a handful of college games and my vast majority of games are from the high school realm. I worked a 3 overtime game back in December with two very big time college and former state final officials and that was one of the easiest games to work because no one brought and inflated ego to the game. Both were very easy to work with and both made me feel as if I was just one of the group and both could have easily big timed me or acted like I had no business being at this game with them.

Peace

dahoopref Tue Jul 22, 2008 10:31pm
A HS official (who just got into JC ball) asked me to watch his HS game and critique his performance. I knew his veteran partner who also worked JC.

During the game they had an "illegal screen" call and used the player control signal; they were in the bonus but did not shoot free throws. They realized their mistake too late for the correctable error.

Then they had a technical foul on a player and proceeded to the POI giving the ball to the team that was issued the T. As they were going to inbound the ball, the offended team's coach wondered why he wasn't getting the ball at half court. The officials eventually gave the ball to the right team but the whole situation looked very unprofessional.

When I went into the locker room after the game, I pretty much told them it looked like a mess out there; and they acknowledged it.

I have seen these situations happen many times at college camps where I'm asked to observe. Some officials have that "switch" that they can turn on and off with HS rules and mechanics. Those who don't have that "switch" attend camps at their own dismay. When a situations like this happen, they looked confused and in shell-shock. An assignor will see this and will usually not hire them into a conference.

justacoach Tue Jul 22, 2008 11:20pm
"During the game they had an "illegal screen" call and used the player control signal; they were in the bonus but did not shoot free throws. They realized their mistake too late for the correctable error."

Pray tell, what was the exact mechanic?? Hand behind head or punch?
What makes you think FTs are warranted in this situation?

Seems like you are nearly as confused as they were.......

Jurassic Referee Wed Jul 23, 2008 05:39am
Quote:
Originally Posted by dahoopref
A HS official (who just got into JC ball) asked me to watch his HS game and critique his performance.

During the game they had an "illegal screen" call and used the player control signal; they were in the bonus but did not shoot free throws. They realized their mistake too late for the correctable error.

I have seen these situations happen many times at college camps where I'm asked to observe. Some officials have that "switch" that they can turn on and off with HS rules and mechanics. Those who don't have that "switch" attend camps at their own dismay. When a situations like this happen, they looked confused and in shell-shock. An assignor will see this and will usually not hire them into a conference.
Mistake? You don't shoot FT's for team control fouls.

Good luck at finding a "switch" some day. :)

Adam Wed Jul 23, 2008 07:22am
Quote:
Originally Posted by mu4scott
This is kind of geared more towards the college officials. When you are watching high school officials work what things do you see that seperate NFHS and college officials? What things make you cringe?

ex. Non-pleated pants.
velcro shoes :) I've seen it.
certain jackets
Not a college ref, but I'll tell you the things that make me cringe.

1. Over the back calls.
2. Reaching fouls.
3. Traveling signals for throwin violation.
4. Fouls called from 75 feet away.

Note what's not in that list.

Jurassic Referee Wed Jul 23, 2008 07:54am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Snaqwells
Not a college ref, but I'll tell you the things that make me cringe.

1. Over the back calls.
2. Reaching fouls.
3. Traveling signals for throwin violation.
4. Fouls called from 75 feet away.

Note what's not in that list.
Another viewpoint......

The first 3 items may not be that egregious <b>if</b> the <b>correct</b> call was being made at the same time. It may be more of a mechanics problem than a judgment problem. Maybe we should really be cringing at whoever was responsible for the training of that official, rather than the official making the call.

They just might not know if no one has ever told them.

Thoughts?

Note that the appropriate and recommended training method for #4 is a slap upside the head.

dahoopref Wed Jul 23, 2008 09:04am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee
Mistake? You don't shoot FT's for team control fouls.

Good luck at finding a "switch" some day. :)
Please correct me if I'm wrong but using NFHS rules, while in possession of the ball if Team A has 7 fouls and commits an illegal screen on Team B, does Team B get to shoot 1 and 1?

jdw3018 Wed Jul 23, 2008 09:17am
Quote:
Originally Posted by dahoopref
Please correct me if I'm wrong but using NFHS rules, while in possession of the ball if Team A has 7 fouls and commits an illegal screen on Team B, does Team B get to shoot 1 and 1?
No, Team B would not get to shoot 1 and 1. FTs are never shot for team control fouls.

Indianaref Wed Jul 23, 2008 09:43am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Snaqwells
Not a college ref, but I'll tell you the things that make me cringe.

1. Over the back calls.
2. Reaching fouls.
3. Traveling signals for throwin violation.
4. Fouls called from 75 feet away.

Note what's not in that list.
An official erroneously granting a time-out?:)

Jurassic Referee Wed Jul 23, 2008 10:09am
Quote:
Originally Posted by dahoopref
Please correct me if I'm wrong but using NFHS rules, while in possession of the ball if Team A has 7 fouls and commits an illegal screen on Team B, does Team B get to shoot 1 and 1?
Rule change about four years ago......2005-06 iirc.

Have you been calling it wrong that long?


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