Question about more unwritten rules...
 

This is kind of geared more towards the college officials. When you are watching high school officials work what things do you see that seperate NFHS and college officials? What things make you cringe?

ex. Non-pleated pants.
velcro shoes :) I've seen it.
certain jackets

Oh, very definitely it has to be non-pleated pants. As an example, take the official that made posts #7 and 9 in this thread:

http://forum.officiating.com/showthr...816#post382816

I definitely cringed at that poor soul. No doubt that he's never gonna make a college official. Yup, he's definitely gonna be one of them lowly high school officials his whole career.

Made me cringe. Cringe, I tell ya.:D

Wow good work. I feel honored and slightly stalked.

Pleated pants are the way to go.

I swear that JR has some sort of relational database running.

Stalked? Nope...just kinda wondering what the point behind your post was. In my experience, what an official wears isn't really the determining factor as to whether that official is competent or not at the level they're working. Their supervisor will usually determine their dress code.

I've yet to see the pants blow a call anyway.:)

I've had pants blow a seam.

Wait, never mind.

Certainly not a determining factor but it can be very important...it can buy you some time with the coaches.

What does that even mean?

Ooooh. Good question.

Isn't it obvious?

Coach: "You blew that call!"
Official: "No, I didn't, my pants did."
Coach: " "
(Official escapes unharmed...)

Ahhh. Well don't I feel like a moron now. Thanks for clearing it up. ;)

Maybe, but throwing his pants under the bus like that is a horrible way to build a partnership.
And those pants will never make the playoffs.

First...let's all agree I worded that very badly :(

The point I was attempting to make is that the appearance of the official...the first impressions made when arriving at the site and on the floor...can earn an official the benefit of the doubt UNTIL the game starts and he/she has to start making calls.

Maybe this example from last weekend will help. I was at a camp and there was a young kid attending. He could run like a deer but he almost looked like a homeless person...looked like he drug his shoes on the camp behind his car, pants and shirt didn't fit well, 2 day growth worth of beard, hair was a mess...you get the picture. Off the floor, while most others wore nice shorts and polo/golf shirts he was in stained t-shirts. Everyone was "whispering" about him...clinicians, campers, coaches and fans. Every game he had problems with the coaches until they realized he was a decent official...young and a little raw, but decent and he had good judgement. If he had looked professional there is a good chance the early part of his games would have been smoother.

This in not to toot my horn but I am a big guy. However, I make a point to always arrive at the site in a jacket (if not wearing a tie) even though it is not requested. My uniform is always freshly cleaned and not wrinkled, always freshly shaven, hair well groomed, etc...180 degrees from the guy above. During the last day of the camp I was pulled to the side by a clinician (happens to be D1 mens official, so let's assume he knows what he is talking about when it comes to officiating). He said he had heard coaches and clinicians mention how looks could be deceiving and commenting positively on my officiating. Eavesdropping he heard one coach say, "Don't let his size fool you. He obviously take a professional approach and I can guarantee you he knows what he is doing, you only have to watch him to see." I took that with a grain of salt until he said he agreed...that it was obvious I knew I needed to make a good impression and had to be able to nail virtually any rules issue. Watching me work, he was amazed that he never saw me out of position to make the calls that needed to be made. I didn't get beat more than other, more fit, officials and that I did excellent work." After hearing that, I am of the opinion that the attention I pay to other things is causing many to decide to let my actions on the floor and my calls do the talking. That kid wasn't getting the luxury...he was behind before he even started.

Did that make sense or did I communicate poorly again?

That makes sense to me.

What often separates the HS from the college refs is no more desire to work that level and the time to devote to travelling long distances to officiate a college game. Oh yeah and ego........maybe a little flair and bravado, maybe better communication with the coaches and players....maybe good PR skills......my opinion is based on having met and spoken to some D1 and D2 officials. I work high school because I don't have the time to devote to college yet. But that may change.

damn you're good, oh wait you told us. :)

" 'ou look maaarvelous"

Your comments about appearance are true. A professional look upon arriving can give you some increased unknown level credibility, but looking good only goes so far. You have to get plays right or that cred is out the door in the first minute of the game.

edit:
Assignors want you to look good. Coaches want you to be good.

I think appearance is a very important factor. You may be the best official in the world, but if you look unproffesional and inadequate you will be treated as such. JMHO

I read this forum on a daily basis and obviously don't post much. I think I'm a part of the vast majority of people who want to get better and this forum helps a lot. It seems the tone of your responses at times falls into the category of belittling, mocking or ridiculing fellow officials for your own enjoyment.

I’ve learned a lot from this place (ex. no flat front pants) and it’s made me a better official. Please realize most of us come here to become more skilled and not all of us have mastered the art of officiating.

Often? Maybe. Just as often, it's talent, ability and hard work.

Oh yeah, because we've never met a high school official with a huge ego. :rolleyes: I'm sorry to be overly sarcastic, but I am so tired of hearing this. As a college guy who gets an occasional D2 game, I work with many many MANY more down-to-earth, easygoing, easy-to-get-along-with guys than head cases. Are there college officials with overblown egos? Absolutely. Are there just as many high-school-only officials with equally overblown egos? I've met my share.

I'm not putting down high school officials, because roughly a third of my schedule each year is still high school games. I do tire, however, of hearing my high school brethren pontificate on the egos of my college brethren. I've never heard a college guy say that a high school guy is less of an official or less talented because he only works high school games. When I've heard critical comments about high school officials from college officials, the comments are about mechanics, judgment, appearance, etc. Never about level of games.

Wrong.

Assignors want their officials to look good <b>and</b> be good. If their officials are, who cares what the coaches think.

Well said. That's exactly why I was wondering what the real point of this thread was. Personally, I'd rather we accent the positive about our fellow officials...no matter the level worked... rather than looking for things to cringe at.

Some of the biggest egos I run up against are those of high school officials. Because many high school officials think they know every damn thing even though they might not be very accomplished at the high school level. For the most part most college officials are very confident individuals, but very easy to work with and for the most part are willing to work with just about anyone. I have had more big time high school officials try to big time me by referencing their state final accomplishments or they Sectional they worked. I only work a handful of college games and my vast majority of games are from the high school realm. I worked a 3 overtime game back in December with two very big time college and former state final officials and that was one of the easiest games to work because no one brought and inflated ego to the game. Both were very easy to work with and both made me feel as if I was just one of the group and both could have easily big timed me or acted like I had no business being at this game with them.

Peace

A HS official (who just got into JC ball) asked me to watch his HS game and critique his performance. I knew his veteran partner who also worked JC.

During the game they had an "illegal screen" call and used the player control signal; they were in the bonus but did not shoot free throws. They realized their mistake too late for the correctable error.

Then they had a technical foul on a player and proceeded to the POI giving the ball to the team that was issued the T. As they were going to inbound the ball, the offended team's coach wondered why he wasn't getting the ball at half court. The officials eventually gave the ball to the right team but the whole situation looked very unprofessional.

When I went into the locker room after the game, I pretty much told them it looked like a mess out there; and they acknowledged it.

I have seen these situations happen many times at college camps where I'm asked to observe. Some officials have that "switch" that they can turn on and off with HS rules and mechanics. Those who don't have that "switch" attend camps at their own dismay. When a situations like this happen, they looked confused and in shell-shock. An assignor will see this and will usually not hire them into a conference.

"During the game they had an "illegal screen" call and used the player control signal; they were in the bonus but did not shoot free throws. They realized their mistake too late for the correctable error."

Pray tell, what was the exact mechanic?? Hand behind head or punch?
What makes you think FTs are warranted in this situation?

Seems like you are nearly as confused as they were.......

Mistake? You don't shoot FT's for team control fouls.

Good luck at finding a "switch" some day. :)

Not a college ref, but I'll tell you the things that make me cringe.

1. Over the back calls.
2. Reaching fouls.
3. Traveling signals for throwin violation.
4. Fouls called from 75 feet away.

Note what's not in that list.

Another viewpoint......

The first 3 items may not be that egregious <b>if</b> the <b>correct</b> call was being made at the same time. It may be more of a mechanics problem than a judgment problem. Maybe we should really be cringing at whoever was responsible for the training of that official, rather than the official making the call.

They just might not know if no one has ever told them.

Thoughts?

Note that the appropriate and recommended training method for #4 is a slap upside the head.

Please correct me if I'm wrong but using NFHS rules, while in possession of the ball if Team A has 7 fouls and commits an illegal screen on Team B, does Team B get to shoot 1 and 1?

No, Team B would not get to shoot 1 and 1. FTs are never shot for team control fouls.

An official erroneously granting a time-out?:)

Rule change about four years ago......2005-06 iirc.

Have you been calling it wrong that long?

You know, there just might be some merit to that. I know personally I didn't go to a (good) camp for the first 6 or 7 years I officiated, so I know I had some bad habits that were pointed out to me. Notice I said "good" camp, because I was at one or two earlier, where all we did was sit in a classroom for an hour, essentially get told, "Here's the rules; go have fun!", and proceed to officiate using one-person mechanics because a number of officials didn't show up.

So, maybe some of these mechanics are a result of bad training, or no "real" training. I do cringe at some who I know have had good training, but continue to do things the wrong way.

I read his original quote about 5 times before I realized he was making 2 separate comments, separated by a semicolon. The way he wrote it made it seem like it was one whole play, but I think he really was describing 2 distinct plays and just wrote it poorly. There was a team control foul with an incorrect mechanic and there was also a situation where a team was in the bonus but they forgot to give them free throws. But they were not the same play.

I am not agreeing or disagreeing with anything anyone said - just trying to clear up a very confusing post.

Smitty, they were the same play. See post #27 by dahoopref. He very obviously did not know the penalty for a team control foul.

You're right. That's what I get for trying to lead the blind...

Sorry for making an already confusing situation even more confusing.

Agreed; on all counts. I cringe not because they're (the first three) definitive indicators of bad officiating; but because they tend to perpetuate misconceptions.

Whoa! easy. I was just trying to think what the difference is between HS and college officials because the more experienced high school refs have strong mechanics, know the rules, have game management skills, do not have egos.

I have not worked any college games yet, but have worked with college officials in Greater Georgia association and have had nothing but good experiences and it was a pleasure to work with them.

My point was there is not too much difference between the experienced HS refs and college officials - as far as mechanics, knowing the rules, game management, strength in making calls. Quite a number of good HS refs do not want to work college. They want to be the best at the HS level.

and by the way I didn't mean inflated ego......I didn't mean ego necessarily in a negative way...when you deal with a coach like Bobby Knight you might need something a little extra in ego.

I do not know the implication you are trying to make, but I have seen these things from high school much more than I have ever seen them from college officials. Only one of these things I have ever seen from a college official.

Peace

or now that I think of it...maybe you need LESS ego.....or more precisely not to let ego get in the way.....maybe that is the difference in college officials.

Everyone has an ego. The key is to relieve oneself of figjam as soon as possible, while maintaining the confidence to do the job required.

Some of the biggest egos I have seen have come from sophomore officials that never work varsity games.

Peace

I only hope that they're good sophomore officials!

The #1 in my book is fouls called on blocked shots and it's not even close.

The funny thing about this off season was my first summer as a state clinician. And I was amazed how many times you had officials that cannot get single varsity game looked disinterested or acted is if they already knew everything when a clinician was talking to them. I attend 2 or 3 college camps every year and very few of the "college officials" in attendance (even the ones on D1 Staffs) listen to every word that they are being told and are willing to change the littlest thing to get better. And the officials have done little or nothing in officiating from an accomplishment point of view, they know everything or they want to debate what someone told them last week. It was even to the point where the assignors or people in charge of the camps I was working with would tell me to just to let these individuals be. When I hear that college officials have bigger egos or harder to work with, it makes me wonder is that more of the lack of confidence in those that have to work with people that work a level they have not achieved yet. I know I was guilty of that very early in my career.

Peace

Agreed. I'm guessing you saw the college official make the traveling signal on a throwin violation. I see and hear all the others from high school (especially JV) officials all the time. In the relatively few varsity games I've done, I really haven't seen them.

Exit question: Since I've now agreed with Jurassic and JRut in the same day on the same thread; does that mean you two agree on something?

Snaqwells, bringing people together

You matchmaker, you.

Supporting Obama?

Fixed it for you.