Difference of understanding with P...
 

Trying to get myself straight on a couple things....

First...I ended up with an inadvertant whistle...There was a full court press on and I hear TIMEOUT. I hit the whistle and both coaches are looking at me...I looked at offensive team coach and ask :30 or full? He said, I didn't request TO. :confused: I go w/ IW.

Subs were at the table for both teams. My P said they could not enter the game on IW...I thought they could because it's now a dead ball.

Secondly...

Very early in first half....Had a held ball with PA going toward Team A....During the dead ball before the inbound the table notifies that A23 is not in the book and scored the last bucket for Team A.

We issue Admin T....Team B shoots the two FTs. Team Bs ball...Correct?

I thought since it was a Tech...it should have been team Bs ball and the arrow did not change. Partner said we go back to POE and resume play and team A got the ball....then the arrow changes to Team B

What is correct? in this scenario...

Sounds like your partner was thinking about NCAA rules. In the NCAA, if the clock is stopped in the last minute of regulation or OT for an inadvertent whistle, then no subs are allowed. But even in NCAA, the subs are allowed at other times of the game.

Also in NCAA (men), you administer most technical fouls and then resume at the POI. This is only true in NFHS for double technical fouls.

So if you were supposed to be using NFHS rules, you were right both times. If you were using NCAAM rules, then your partner was right the second time and may have been right the first time, depending on when the inadvertent whistle occurred.

Isn't that only for NCAA-W? NCAA-M if the whistle blows then subs get to come in?

The short answer is "no".

Both rulesets prohibit subs from entering in the last 59.9 seconds when the clock is stopped for an accidental whistle. There was some difference when the rule first appeared between what constituted an accidental whistle. Those differences may be gone now. I can't find my NCAA book at the moment, and the NCAA website is not cooperating. So somebody else will have to supply the actual citation from Rule 3.

NCAA Rule 3-4.6
 

Art. 7. (Men) Substitution shall not be allowed when the game is stopped in the last 59.9 seconds of the second half or any extra period to correct a timing mistake or for an inadvertent whistle.

(Women) Substitutions shall not be allowed when the game is stopped in the last 59.9 seconds of the second half or any extra period for anything other than a timeout, a violation or a foul.

Thanks, gamer. I like the Women's rule better on this one. I remember some discussion about blowing the whistle for the ball bouncing away from the inbounder. Should we let subs in at that point? It's not really an inadvertent whistle. I think the answer was that it actually is an inadvertent whistle, because you didn't need to blow it -- the clock was already stopped.

In any case, I think the Women's rule is clearer, more specific and easier to administer.

Hate to be picky, but to be more accurate you DO mean POI (point of interruption) right?:)

This doesn't seem that complicated to me. If you're inbounding the ball, then the game was stopped. If it was stopped for a timing mistake or an inadvertent whistle, the subs stay at the table. If it was stopped for another reason, then the subs have already entered!

What about the subs that came after the ball was handed to the inbounder?

I'm sure I have no idea what you're talking about!! :rolleyes:

Not necessarily. Suppose there is less than a minute remaining in the second half when A1 dunks the ball. The clock stops (in the NCAA) due to the successful try. But the force of the dunk causes it to bounce off another player toward midcourt.

Normally, if the ball bounces a long way away, we'll blow the whistle to stop the game and retrieve the ball. The clock is already stopped in this situation, though, so there's no reason for the whistle. So if the official (out of habit) blows the whistle, is it inadvertent? Do we let the subs in?

I think that the answer was that we do not let the subs in. I'm sure it's one of the NCAA bulletins for the year that the rule was introduced, but I don't have all the old bulletins.

With the women's rule, we don't even have to worry about this scenario.

I agree with your ruling but something just came to mind.....

In your mens scenario the referee blew the whistle on purpose and it was not inadvertent/accident. Can a sub be allowed in with less than 59.9 secs if I blow the whistle on purpose that is not a foul or violation?

Example: the net getting stuck in the rim from a shot or a wet spot that needs to be cleaned up on the floor.

Scrapper....Huh! I meant that for Dogg, sorry

Full court press. IW seems to be an advantage for the offensive team. How about enforce the TO?

I'm sure that exact question was addressed in an NCAA bulletin, but I don't have those bulletins from that year. Maybe somebody like Mark DeNucci or Nevadaref has them on hand. Unfortunately, there's no case like this in the casebook.

How? Unless you heard and saw the HC request it, how can you force him to burn one?

5.8.3 situation e

Doesn't this cover the case where team A has the ball, and team B's coach requests TO? In other words, the official grants a request where one shouldn't have been granted. I don't think this would cover the situation where there was no request.

Indiana,

don't have my books with me, but I still wouldn't grant a TO to team that should not be granted TO (team not in possession). This would give that team undue advantage to set up a play. IW and continue play

Really? At the NFHS level?

Did some research. Here is the thread http://forum.officiating.com/showthread.php?t=31887

I think we are talking about when an official erroneously grants a time-out.

I see some disagree with me. I'm not charging a coach with a TO that I granted him because some Dad in the stands asked for it. I screwed that up, not the coach.

Better yet, I'm slow to grant a coach's time out anyway; so I'll know it was him/her before I blow the whistle. (Knock on wood).

I forgot about this discussion.

I know this case play covers the situation I saw in a holiday tournament game one year. A1 shoots, misses, and B1 grabs the rebound and starts upcourt. A's coach is so upset her team didn't run the play properly, she starts yelling at the official standing front of her, "Gimme a time-out!!" Gimme a time-out NOW!!!" So, the poor official blows his whistle, and both the coach and official realize the "oops" about the same time. But, the request was granted, even though B wasn't allowed to have one in that situation, as per this case play.

Maybe BBallRef and JR will get on my case for this, but if I KNOW there is no request, I'm not granting a TO and going with the IW. If there is ANY possiblity that there was a word or signal that could've been a request, then the TO is granted. I don't ever want to get into that game where a coach or a team is purposely saying something confusing at the end of a game to possibly gain the advantage of the IW.

I don't know if it's both men and women, but I know the NCAA-W came out with the ruling that if a player is in the air and going OOB, and requests a TO to prevent a violation, and the official erroneously blows the whistle to grant the TO, the TO is not granted, the violation is administered, and it is treated as an IW. Granted, this is not the Fed., but it tells me there are a few isolated cases where the TO is not automatically granted just because the official blows the whistle to grant it.

Oh no, I agree with Mr. Quixote...maybe I'll join him in his windmill tilting. :)

That's the best way to avoid the issue - make sure the coach or player is requesting a legitimate TO. I would rather miss one or two requests that I couldn't verify in the heat of the moment, than to have to deal with a costly misunderstanding.

Good point, although the situation still seems clear to me. The game is stopped neither to correct a timing mistake nor was this an inadvertent whistle, so bring the subs in in NCAAM. In NCAAW, they stay at the table.

How do you know it was a dad in the stands?

I don't, and I don't know it was the coach. If I don't "know" it was the coach, I'm not making him burn the TO.
It's just like blowing your whistle for a phantom OOB call and knowing immediately that you kicked it. Go with the IW and get the ball in play quickly (unless one of the coaches now wants to use a TO.)

The case play is clearly referring to team B (typically the team without the ball in the case book) requesting a TO and the whistle blowing for that. Here, you do not know who said it. Play on.