I had a situation in men's rec ball that I had to look twice about.
Big guy goes for a one handed dunk and the ball is in the cylander with his hand on it and ball touching the ring.As he is coming down he somehow pulls the ball back with him.
He returns with the ball to the floor.
His hand never left the ball.
I passed on the call not knowing what to call.
Hindsight it should have been a travel I think.
What do you think?

This is a travel in the pro game as long as he remains in possession the entire time (Casebook 363). I would assume it also is in the college and high school game.

Good sitch.
 

Thanks MOFFICIAL,
Yup, sounds like a travel to me, too, having had a few moments longer to think about it than you did.
Player jumped with the ball and came down with the ball.
Ball wasn't released.
Tough call!
I can't imagine what I would've had. But, thanks to you, I may get it right if I ever see it.
mick

If he hits the rim with the ball, I don't have a travel. I've seen kids go up to dunk, get the ball stuffed by the rim, and come back down with it. It is not essential for the ball to leave the hand to have a shot. 4-40-2

I would say once the ball touched the rim, it technically is a "shot", so possession ended, even though he was still in contact with the ball.

Sounds like a good call to me.

Hmmmm.
 

Tony,
Player goes up with the ball and jams it on the <u>underside</u> of the rim, never releases the ball, and returns to the floor. Looks like a travel from U.P. here.
mick

You're entitled to that opinion. Did you look at my rule reference? The ball does not have to be released for a shot to take place.

Let's look at the NCAA sitch. In the play that you describe, would the shot clock reset? And it so, how can you call it traveling if a shot has been taken?

For sure.... I always look at your references. ;)
I am thinking that your 4-40-2 only distinguishes the block/interference/interjection of an act of a defender and not the singular act of the shooter.

Clock reset? Yes, when the ball hit the rim. But the shot has not been taken, it is <u>being taken</u>, in process.

Now, I do not disagree the try was initiated. I question did it end? I guess it did not: 4-40-4 The try ends when - <li>the throw is successful<li>when the thrown ball touches the floor<li>when the ball becomes dead (<i>on my whistle when the shooter came back to the floor</i>)

Let's have the shooter release the ball before he jumps a second time, otherwise he could be doing that all night.
mick

as referenced by eroe39 case book play 363.
player a1, prior to dribbling the ball, jumps and touches the ball to the basket ring or back board. he returns to the floor with the ball still in his possession. is this a traveling violation.
yes. because the ball has never left player a1's possession, there has been no field goal attempt. the ball must be out of his possession prior to his pivot foot returning to the floor to prevent a violation.

the rules that govern traveling are the same from pro to college to highschool. (except the 2 rythm count which has no bearing on this play.) i would call a travel on this play now that it has been identified, discussed and referenced.

Doesn't a try end when it's been rebounded?

I don't think the men's rec league the MOFFICIAL referenced was playing pro rules. If not, then 363 has no bearing.

Oh, and the rules that govern traveling are different in the NBA versus NF and NCAA.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by BktBallRef


Oh, and the rules that govern traveling are different in the NBA versus NF and NCAA.

what are the differences?

nba
Section XIV-Traveling
a. A player who receives the ball while standing still may pivot, using either foot as the pivot foot.
b. A player who receives the ball while he is progressing or upon completion of a dribble, may use a two-count rhythm in coming to a stop, passing or shooting the ball.
The first count occurs:
(1) As he receives the ball, if either foot is touching the floor at the time he receives it.
(2) As the foot touches the floor, or as both feet touch the floor simultane- ously after he receives the ball, if both feet are off the floor when he receives it.
The second occurs:
(1) After the count of one when either foot touches the floor, or both feet touch the floor simultaneously.
c. A player who comes to a stop on the count of one may pivot, using either foot as the pivot foot.
d. A player who comes to a stop on the count of two, with one foot in advance of the other, may pivot using only the rear foot as the pivot foot.
e. A player who comes to a stop on the count of two, with neither foot in advance of the other, may use either foot as the pivot foot.
f. In starting a dribble after (1) receiving the ball while standing still, or (2) coming to a legal stop, the ball must be out of the player's hand before the pivot foot is raised off the floor.
g. If a player, with the ball in his possession, raises his pivot foot off the floor, he must pass or shoot before his pivot foot returns to the floor. If he drops the ball while in the air, he may not be the first to touch the ball.
h. A player who falls to the floor while holding the ball, or while coming to a stop, may not gain an advantage by sliding.
i. A player who attempts a field goal may not be the first to touch the ball if it fails to touch the backboard, basket ring or another player.
PENALTY: Loss of ball. The ball is awarded to the opposing team at the sideline, nearest spot of the violation but no nearer the baseline than the foul line extended.interference or goaltending, the thrower-in may run along the end line.
Art. 7. A thrower-in shall be permitted to throw the ball to a teammate
nc2a
Section 64. Tr a v e l i n g
Art. 3. A player who catches the ball while moving or dribbling may stop
and establish a pivot foot as follows:
a . When both feet are off the playing court and the player lands:
1 . Simultaneously on both feet, either may be the pivot foot;
2 . On one foot followed by the other, the first foot to touch shall be
the pivot foot;
3 . On one foot, the player may jump off that foot and simultane-ously
land on both; neither foot can be the pivot foot.
b . When one foot is on the playing court:
1 . That foot shall be the pivot foot when the other foot touches in
a step;B R -7 4 RULE 4-64/DEFINITIONS
2 . The player may jump off that foot and simultaneously land on
both; neither foot can then be the pivot foot.
Art. 4. After coming to a stop and establishing the pivot foot:
a . The pivot foot may be lifted, but not returned to the playing court,
before the ball is released on a pass or try for goal;
b . The pivot foot shall not be lifted before the ball is released to start a
d r i b b l e .
A.R. 34. A1 receives a pass from A2 and comes to a stop legally with the right foot
established as the pivot foot. A1 tosses the ball from one hand to the other several
times and then proceeds to bat the ball to the floor before A1 lifts the pivot foot. RUL-ING:
Legal.
A.R. 35. A1 attempts to catch the ball while running. A1 fumbles the ball and succeeds
in securing it before it strikes the playing court. A1 then begins a dribble, taking sev-eral
steps between the time A1 first touched the ball until catching it. RULING: There
has been no violation provided that A1 released the ball to start the dribble before lift-ing
the pivot foot from the playing court after catching the ball.
Art. 5. After coming to a stop when neither foot can be the pivot foot:
a . One or both feet may be lifted, but may not be returned to the play-ing
court, before the ball is released on a pass or try for goal;
b . Neither foot shall be lifted, before the ball is released, to start a drib-b
l e .
A.R. 36. Is it traveling when a player (a) falls to the playing court while holding the
ball; or (b) gains control of the ball while on the playing court and then, because of
momentum, rolls or slides, after which the player passes or starts a dribble before get-ting
to his or her feet? RULING: In (a), yes, because it is virtually impossible not to
move the pivot foot when falling to the playing floor. In (b), no. The player may pass,
shoot, start a dribble or call a timeout. Once the player has the ball and is no longer
sliding, he or she may not roll over. When flat on his or her back, the player may sit
up without violating. When the player puts the ball on the floor, then rises and is the
first to touch the ball, it also is traveling. When a player rises to his or her feet while
holding the ball, a traveling violation occurs. When a player falls to one knee while
holding the ball, it is traveling when the pivot foot moves.
Section 65. Try for Field Goal/Act of Shooting
Art. 1. A try for field goal is an attempt by a player to score two or three
points by throwing or tapping the ball into his or her basket.
A.R. 37. A1 becomes confused and shoots the ball at the wrong basket. A1 is fouled
while trying to shoot and the ball goes in the basket. Is this a goal? If A1 missed,
should A1 be granted two free throws for the foul by the Team B player? RULING:
No goal. The ball became dead when the foul occurred. When a player shoots at the
opponent’s basket, it is not a try. When Team A is in the bonus when the Team B play-er
fouls A1, A1 shall be awarded a one-and-one. When Team A is not in the bonus,
the ball shall be awarded to Team A at the designated spot.



though the wording and order are different the intent is the same. nc2a-the key is art4 a. the ball must be released on a pass or try for goal. nba-the key is g the player must pass or shoot.



[Edited by crew on Apr 16th, 2002 at 03:16 AM]

Dunno, Tony.
I have never read that one.
mick

I'm voting this way:

1. Dunker goes up I comes back down with the ball after
completely missing everything (ball did not touch the rim).

Travel. Not a legitimate try, IMO.

2. Dunker goes up & gets "stuffed" by either the underside
of the rim o rthe top of the rim.

No travel, reset the shot clock. This is a legitimate
try, IMO.

Dan,
If the Dunker goes up and misses everything, why is that not a try? The try would seem to be the reason the Dunker elevated.
Let's take the rim out of it and insert the backboard.
Do we still have a "no call", or do we now have something else?

mick

If he hit the backboard, I would have a try, just as I would if he hit the rim, unless it's just a show-off move. If he doesn't touch anything with the ball, I'm with Dan. I have a travel.

Interesting question, and not very well addressed in the rule book.

crew, when I get a chance I 'll post some of the differences in the NBA versus NF and NBA traveling rules. But I can think of a huge difference without even looking! Can you? ;)

Would you be thinking of the question for which you get paid $5 each time it is asked? :)

And yes, it's legal in NF; but illegal in the NBA.

Chuck

Well, difference #1 is that the airball-catch-your-own shot is a travel in NBA - I'll spare crew the $5 fee.

The main difference, though, is that travelling is called in NF and not in NBA. :D

You know, if you called basket interference on this play, there would be no discussion about whether or not it is a travel.

In the orginal sitch, the ball was in the cylinder, even on the rim, and then removed from the cylinder by the player. Basket interference does not take into consideration how the ball got into the cylinder, only that it did.

4-6-2 Basket interference occurs when a player touches the ball while any part of the ball is within the imaginary cylinder which has the ring as its lower base.

Read R9-11Exception,Biggie.

show-off move?

As I was writing this I thought "Mick's gonna ask me about
the backboard". ;) Hitting the rim or backboard is a try
on this play so he gets the travel unless he hits either
with the ball. (If you go up to dunk & miss *everything* then you deserve a travel! :)

Look at the exception in 9-11. This exception (the dunk protection clause) applies to both putting the ball in and to blocking shots (i.e., A1 goes up for a dunk, B1's hand gets trapped by the ball outside the cylinder and gets pushed into the cylinder).

Dan,
I think if he forgets to leave the ball up there, he deserves a travel.
mick

Mark,
...And your point is...?

mick

I sent you an e-mail a few days ago.
Did it look like garbage, or are you mad.

We're saying the same thing, no? (I'm assuming in this play
he goes up & comes back down with the ball, an "up&down"
travel.)

Dan,
I really don't know what you are saying.
We <u>apparently</u> agree on the missing everything and returning to the floor.
So, we are at least in a 1/2-slow or 1/2-fast agreement.
mick

What I'm saying (for the last time) is that if A1 goes up
with the ball, does not make a legitimate shot attempt
and comes down with the ball we have a travel. Unless
of course a defender causes a held ball or fouls A1, neither
of which applies to this play. I don't care if he wants to
dunk it or not.

I see.
Thank you.

Mark,
...And your point is...?

mick
[/B][/QUOTE]

Someone thought this was BI because A1 touched the ball while it was in the cylinder - I simply pointed out why this was not so (apparently after someone else had done so).

[QUOTE]Originally posted by crew

Quote:

Originally posted by BktBallRef Oh, and the rules that govern traveling are different in the NBA versus NF and NCAA. what are the differences?

#1- The two rhythm count that you spoke of, although it is similiar to a jumpstop.

#2- NBA - A player who falls to the floor while holding the ball, or while coming to a stop, may not gain an advantage by sliding.

In the NF and NCAA, a player who falls to the floor while holding the ball has traveled. He doesn't get a chance to slide.

#3- As Chuck correctly guessed, in the NBA, it's traveling if a player reobunds his won missed airball shot. It is not traveling in the NF or NCAA.

#4- NBA - After lifting the pivot foot, if a player drops the ball while in the air, he may not be the first to touch the ball.

Under NF and NCAA rules, can a player recover the ball if he fumbles it? The rule says that he must pass or shoot. It does not say he cannot be the first player to touch it if he drops or fumbles it. If he legitmately fumbled it, I would let him recover it.

#5 - They don't call traveling in the NBA! :D

bktballref,

the differences: 1. cannot catch own shot. 2. not necesarily a travel if a player falls to the floor. and a player may recover a fumbled ball as in nc2a.

it is a confusing play but the play has been referenced by nc2a and pro. also the differences in the traveling definitions have no bearing on the play. the ball must be released prior to the pivot foot coming to the floor in both nc2a and pro.

you have a hard time admitting you were wrong.

And, I never said the differences in NBA versus NF and NCAA traveling rules had any bearing on the play. You stated, "the rules that govern traveling are the same from pro to college to highschool." I simply stated that this was not true. I've pointed out the differences.

No, I'm afriad you're wrong.

NCAA 4-65-2
The try shall start when the player begins the motion that habitually precedes the release of the ball on a try. The ball does not need to leave the player’s hand.
NCAA 4-65-5
A dunk attempt is a try.

Where was I wrong? You've been wrong since you got here with your "I'm not calling it that way cause the rule doesn't make sense" mentality.

Read the above rule references. Who's wrong? :)

NCAA 4-65-2
The try shall start when the player begins the motion that habitually precedes the release of the ball on a try. The ball does not need to leave the player’s hand.
NCAA 4-65-5
A dunk attempt is a try.

this is talking about the begining of a try and continuous motion in regards to shooting motion. (ie shooting foul)

Thanks crew for NCAA rule on that. I see way to many officials that I have observed or work with that call plays going to the basket/rim "on the floor" and instead they should be 2 shot foul.

It is a shooting foul when the player begins any motion at all that precedes the eventual shooting of the ball. Therefore when a player picks up his dribble and takes his steps to the basket, those plays where arm hits occur as he habitually makes his motion to the basket should be ruled 2 shot fouls and not "on the floor."

This is another good discussion here that I think we, in general, sometimes miss and put the ball sideout or on the endline too much, in my humble and HONEST opinion.

I thought you guys had agreed two pages back. But, for the sake of getting to Sr. Member this century, I'll throw down too...

Going back to the original post, it really comes down to whether the official believes the player was shooting, i.e. initiating a try on goal. I don't know what an offensive player holding the ball against the rim would be doing other than trying to put it in the goal. I think MOFFICIAL passing on the call was correct. If I see an offensive player trap the ball against the rim, I'm not going to embarass myself trying to sell a travel here (NF/NCAA).

Wasn't trying to rehash anything. Just merely talking philosophy on this rule in general. Personally, I didn't even remember what the original play was in this thread. Just talking philosophy here and that is how we all improve (or hopefully improve).