Boys grade7-8 tournament this weekend.

My team is at the line for 2 free throws. Official bounces the ball to my player for first of 2. B1 has a lane violation before the shot is taken. Trail blows whistle (before the shot) and announces... "lane violation on B, now we're shooting 3 shots instead of 2".

I thought that was a really interesting interpretation of the rule book.

For the record, my player missed the 3rd one.

Ren

nothing really interesting about it, just a really bad screw-up from an obviously inexperienced official, at least in terms of rules knowledge

I was about to add that the official was a 1st year official .

I did go up to her and her partner after the game and politely explained the rule to them. Her partner (a 2nd year official) didn't pick up on it either.

Ren

1st and 2nd year officials.
 

I think you answered your own statement. And if you really think about it, it was really not that weird epecially at that level.

Peace

Hold on a minute. B1 committed a violation. The official blowing the whistle does not cancel the violation. If the first shot is missed then A1 still gets the shot over for the violation. So, this is one way A1 could be shooting three shots. Is this what happend?

He incorrectly blew the whistle before the FT attempt. It's 2 shots, no matter what.

When B violated before the shot, this is a delayed violation. If A makes the FT, no violation. If A misses, blow whistle and A reshoots the first FT.

I have to disagree, If the 1st shot is missed, the player gets another shot for the violation.

Not if the official blows the whistle and calls the violation before the shot. We aren't going to shoot "3 to make 2."

In the end, the player will get two shots. If the first misses (and the ref holds his whistle), the player gets a replacement first shot, not a second shot. (Yes, semantics, but it is important).

I can't remember if it is college or HS or Both, But i have read the rule. Blowing the whistle before the shot does not cancel the violation, and if the shot is missed then the violation is still in affect and we have another shot. I will try to find this rule.

In both, you're correct for calling a timeout - the violation is not erased because of the timeout.

If, however, the whistle is blown accidentally before the ball is in flight, the ball becomes dead. At that point, the free throw ends, and a substitute FT is awarded. The substitute free throw is NOT awarded if this first substitute throw is unsuccessful.

OK i found it. 2000-01 Women's rules questionnaire Prepared by Barbara Jacobs. Question # 9; Defender B1 steps into the lane early on a free throw by A1. The official blows an inadvertent whistle. The official takes the ball away from A1 and re-administers the free throw. A1 misses the free throw and play continues. Is the official correct? Answer is NO.

Just a thought.
 

That would all be fine and dandy if this applied to NCAA Women's Basketball rulings in 2000-2001. But this was a 7th and 8th grade game. Unless otherwise stated I would assume that they used NF rules to some extent. I think we need to find a NF ruling or we need to know what rules this game was under. Often times the college has a different way of handling things than the lower levels.

Peace

This tournament was run using NFHS rules.

Ren

Re: Just a thought.
 

BkbBallRef and JR are wrong on this play.

The T made a mistake by sounding his whistle to soon, but the violation does not disappear. A1 gets three to make two (remember that rule in the NBA). The correct procedure is for the T and the L to give the delayed dead ball signal while A1 is shooting his first free throw. If the first free throw is successful then A1 only gets one more free throw. If the first free throw is not, then A1 gets two more free throws.

Bart's rule reference applies to both NCAA Men's/Women's as well as NFHS. Why, there is nothing in either rules codes that differ that would not allow a different interpretation. This logic goes back to when the NBCUSC was replaced by the NFHS and NCAA Rules Committees, and the casebook plays of the NBCUSC was accepted by both Committees.

Bart, Is there a correct way to handle it according to the questionnaire you referenced? All I know is this happened to me once and I don't have to worry about it because it will never happen again. 7th grade game a couple of years ago, I am lead and see a kid on my side of the lane but in the second from the top spot step out and tap the kid nearest the shooter to get him to move, this after the shooter has the ball. I believe the kid was about to comply and, because of the level, blow the play dead and tell them to switch. My thinking was to avoid a double violation in this instance which would have negated a free throw because of something initiated by the defense, but of course, the coach was irate and started to yell at my partner to give him three free throws. Which I did not, and still would probably not do, though I can see the logic of giving him an extra if he missed the first.

Re: Re: Just a thought.
 

BkbBallRef and JR are wrong on this play.

The T made a mistake by sounding his whistle to soon, but the violation does not disappear. A1 gets three to make two (remember that rule in the NBA). The correct procedure is for the T and the L to give the delayed dead ball signal while A1 is shooting his first free throw. If the first free throw is successful then A1 only gets one more free throw. If the first free throw is not, then A1 gets two more free throws.

Bart's rule reference applies to both NCAA Men's/Women's as well as NFHS. Why, there is nothing in either rules codes that differ that would not allow a different interpretation. This logic goes back to when the NBCUSC was replaced by the NFHS and NCAA Rules Committees, and the casebook plays of the NBCUSC was accepted by both Committees. [/B][/QUOTE]Mark,FEd R6-7-5 says that the ball is dead when an official's whistle is blown.This case is not one of the exceptions listed.How can you award a point on a FT made with a dead ball?Obviously you can't!The rules,as written,won't allow it.Tony had the right call.

Re: Re: Re: Just a thought.
 

Mark,FEd R6-7-5 says that the ball is dead when an official's whistle is blown.This case is not one of the exceptions listed.How can you award a point on a FT made with a dead ball?Obviously you can't!The rules,as written,won't allow it.Tony had the right call. [/B][/QUOTE]


Who said anything about awarding any points. We are talking about awarding substitute free throws.

Re: Re: Re: Re: Just a thought.
 

Who said anything about awarding any points. We are talking about awarding substitute free throws. [/B][/QUOTE]Re-read your post above.How can you have a successful FT with a dead ball?It's impossible under the rules.R6-7-5 is very explicit.This can never be a delayed dead ball.It is dead immediately,and you can't score with a dead ball.If you want further proof,read Casebook 6-7-5 SituationA.You simply cancel any activity after the inadvertent whistle,and re-shoot the original FT.That is the substitute throw that you award.

Re: Re: Just a thought.
 

Why do I have to be lumped up in this. I did not agree with Tony, nor did I disagree with him. I just said that this was a NCAA Women's ruling which does not apply necessarily to NF Rules. Then I asked for a NF Ruling on the issue too. Unless we have a NF Ruling, we cannot say this is the proper way to handle this under NF Rules.

I think people on this forum love to blame or point out the rights and wrong of people, rather than just focusing on what a person said. I do not have an answer unless I can find one according the casebook or rulebook.

Peace

The OFFICIAL NF Ruling
 

Read ALL of 6.7.5

The situation - After A1 has the ball, B1 commits a lane violation. The official inadvertently sounds his whistle:
(a) before A1 starts his shooting motion
(b) After the ball is released
(c) During A1's motion, but before the ball is released.

Ruling: (a) and (c) - ball becomes dead immediately (b) - ball is dead when the free throw ends. "Because B1 violated, in all cases, a substitute throw is awarded if the free-throw attempt by A1 is unsuccessful."

Of course, now we get to debate to which FTA the rule is referring! :p

Re: The OFFICIAL NF Ruling
 

Mark,I was aware of the last sentence that you highlighted.That is why I stated that the substitute FT replaces the original FT.The whole play is just Basketball Rules 101.The FT is unsuccessful because the referee killed the FT when he blew his whistle.R4-20-3 covers that,too.The original FT ends when the ball becomes dead.You then simply award a substitute FT under R6-7-5,not 2 substitute FT's. R5-1-1 states that you can only score with a live ball,also.What MTDSr is proposing goes against those basic tenets.

[Edited by Jurassic Referee on Apr 8th, 2002 at 04:32 AM]

Am i missing something here. Didn't Mark Dexter just site the case play for NF(6.7.5) and i sited the case play for ncaa. This case play says the player gets two to make one(because it happends to be the second shot). If it is the 1st. shot then it would be a possible three to make two if the player misses the 1st. shot. Are you concerned about the exact words?

Re: Re: The OFFICIAL NF Ruling
 

No one is awarding two substitute free throws. A1 never got the chance to attempt his first free throw because the T sounded an inadvertent whistle instead of a delayed deadball whistle for B1's free throw violation. A1 still gets to attempt his first free throw but with the officials showing the delayed deadball signal. If A1's free throw is successful we go on to the second free throw. If A1's first free throw is not successful then he gets a substitute free throw followed by the second free throw. Hence, three to make two.

I do not have my rules books in front of me but the NFHS Casebook play involves a timeout, and the NCAA A.R. deals with this play directly. But the logic applied to both plays is the same. Team B cannot benefit from its free throw violation because of the timeout request by Team A (NFHS Casebook Play) or the inadvertent whistle by the T (NCAA A.R.).

Re: Re: Just a thought.
 

Mark, there seems to be a lot of disagreement about this play, and to be honest, I'm not sure where I stand on it. But even if your interpretation is correct, your above statement is not technically correct. Even if you allow A1 to reshoot the first free throw with the delayed violation in effect, it's not a true 3-to-make-2 situation. If A1 makes the first FT then the violation is no longer "in play", so to speak; so he only gets one more, even if the second one is missed. In other words, the delayed violation only applies to the first FT, right? So once it's made, he doesn't get the benefit of a possible replacement throw on the second attempt.

It's more of a 2-to-make-1-then-1. :)

Chuck

Re: Re: Re: Just a thought.
 

The NBA's 3 for 2 rule was actually a bonus rule (like 1 and 1) in NFHS/NCAA. But the effect is the same in the posted play whether it is 2 for 1 or 3 for 2.

Everyone should also keep in mind, that even if DeNucci is correct about the rule in general, this particular shooter in this particular situation made the first shot, so he should not have been awarded a third. What if he had made the last (third) shot?!?!?

Re: Re: Re: Re: Just a thought.
 

I do remember that the NBA used the 3-to-make-2 bonus rule for a while. I think it only lasted one season, but I could easily be wrong about that.

But my point in my previous post was that the effect is definitely not the same in the posted play whther it's 2-for-1 or 3-for-2. If it's a 3-to-make-2 situation, then the shooter could still receive 3 shots altogether even after making the first shot. (He could miss the second shot and receive a replacement for that one.)

However, in the posted play, if the shooter makes the first shot, then he can only receive a maximum of 2 shots. If he makes the first shot, the replacement FT (due to the delayed violation before the first shot) cannot be "carried over" to apply to the second shot.

That was my only point in my previous post. Does it make more sense that way?

Chuck

Not that it makes any difference, Julie, but you assume that he made the first one. All rgaudreau said was that he missed the third one, didn't say anything about the first two.

Re: Re: Re: The OFFICIAL NF Ruling
 

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

Quote:

The situation - After A1 has the ball, B1 commits a lane violation. The official inadvertently sounds his whistle: (a) before A1 starts his shooting motion (b) After the ball is released (c) During A1's motion, but before the ball is released. Ruling: (a) and (c) - ball becomes dead immediately (b) - ball is dead when the free throw ends. "Because B1 violated, in all cases, a substitute throw is awarded if the free-throw attempt by A1 is unsuccessful." I do not have my rules books in front of me but the NFHS Casebook play involves a timeout, and the NCAA A.R. deals with this play directly. But the logic applied to both plays is the same. Team B cannot benefit from its free throw violation because of the timeout request by Team A (NFHS Casebook Play) or the inadvertent whistle by the T (NCAA A.R.).

Mark, This case play has nothing to do with a TO.

Devdog...

Shooter did make the first 2... only missed the 3rd one.

As an official, I probably should have corrected the official during the game. If it had happened the other way around to the other team, I would have been standing and howling like the best of them.

Ren

Re: Re: Re: The OFFICIAL NF Ruling
 

No one is awarding two substitute free throws. A1 never got the chance to attempt his first free throw because the T sounded an inadvertent whistle instead of a delayed deadball whistle for B1's free throw violation. A1 still gets to attempt his first free throw but with the officials showing the delayed deadball signal. If A1's free throw is successful we go on to the second free throw. If A1's first free throw is not successful then he gets a substitute free throw followed by the second free throw. Hence, three to make two.

I do not have my rules books in front of me but the NFHS Casebook play involves a timeout, and the NCAA A.R. deals with this play directly. But the logic applied to both plays is the same. Team B cannot benefit from its free throw violation because of the timeout request by Team A (NFHS Casebook Play) or the inadvertent whistle by the T (NCAA A.R.). [/B][/QUOTE]Mark,there is nothing in the rulebook or casebook that will support your stance.There is no such thing as a delayed deadball whistle mentioned anywhere that is applicable to this sitch.There is no TO involved.Team B is not benefiting from it's violation because a substitute FT IS awarded for the violation.What would you call on this play if you blew the whistle,and then an A player violated before the FT was taken,possibly because of the inadvertant whistle?Can A(orB) commit a violation during a dead ball on a FT?I will gladly change my mind if you can find something concrete to cite out of the rules to support your stance.

Three shots was wrong.... No doubt.
I want to walk through this simply and logically.

We never negate a violation or penalty once it is called.

If we truly decide it was an inadvertent whistle, then we put the ball in play using the inadvertent rule which either gives it back to the team with the ball or it is a jump because of control issues.

The question is... Is this an inadvertent whistle or not?
If the whistle is inadvertent then we would just give the ball back to the shooter state the whistle was inadvertent and go on with no violation.

My perspective is that in this case the violation was recognized by the official and called. (The official just did not know how to administer it and blew the whistle)

Since we dont negate violations called, and it was a clear violation, I think you would shoot it, administer violation if he missed it, and then go to the second one.

This sounds like I am agrreing with the NCAA and Mark but the simple logic would leave me to follow that conclusion. Particularly giving the time out scenario as well.

JR, I think I figured out the problem. You and maybe some others are looking at the rule book 6-7-5. Mark Dexter and I are asking you to look at the Case book 6-7-5.

Re: Re: Re: Re: The OFFICIAL NF Ruling
 

Mark,there is nothing in the rulebook or casebook that will support your stance.There is no such thing as a delayed deadball whistle mentioned anywhere that is applicable to this sitch.There is no TO involved.Team B is not benefiting from it's violation because a substitute FT IS awarded for the violation.What would you call on this play if you blew the whistle,and then an A player violated before the FT was taken,possibly because of the inadvertant whistle?Can A(orB) commit a violation during a dead ball on a FT?I will gladly change my mind if you can find something concrete to cite out of the rules to support your stance. [/B][/QUOTE]


The inadvertent before the release of the first free throw attempt kills everything. No ifs, ands, or butts!! The only way that A1 would shoot three free throws is, after the T explained is goof, A1's first free throw, is shot with the officials showing the delayed deadball signal and if A1 misses this free throw, A1 gets a substitute free throw for his first free throw. After the substitute free throw is attempted, A1 then attempts his second free throw.

The phrase 3 to make 2 is just a colorful description of what is happeneing. Chuck E. is probably more correct in using 2 to make 1 as a description.

But in any case, the free throw violation by B1 must be recognized and penalized if A1 misses his first attempt.

Bart,both the rulebook and the casebook are saying the exact same thing.That's Casebook 6-7-5A.The inadvertant whistle makes the ball dead immediately.The initial FT also ends with the inadvertant whistle.You cannot score a FT with a dead ball.These are all rules that I quoted,and are plainly written.You can't ignore them by using a delayed violation signal.The FT is unsuccessful because the whistle went early for the violation.The replacement FT is for the wrongly whistled violation.I have not to date seen anything quoted out of the rule or case book that will allow for anything different.If someone can find something,I'll certainly be glad to consider it.I've been wrong before,but I don't think I am in this case.

Again, I'll say it -- rules are denoted with dashes (e.g., 6-7-5) and cases with periods / dots (e.g., 6.7.5). This is actually listed in the case book -- FOreword, page 5.

BTW, I agree with Mark T.D. -- the whistle doesn't cancel the violation. If A misses the throw after play is resumed, s/he gets another throw because of the violation.

I'm not sure that's the way I would have written the rule, but that's the way I'll enforce it given how it is written.

JR I'm confuesed. I know so whats new. Maybe we are saying the same thing. The rules say, B1 violates the lane, official whistles, no shot was taken, then the official gets the ball and reamin. the ball to the FT'er, and he misses, then the official gives him another shot for the violation.
If you disagree with this, then you are disagreeing with the case play, which is the rule. Are we saying the same thing?

Bob,the whistle doesn't cancel the violation.The whistle does cancel the FT if the ball isn't in the air.The penalty for the violation and cancelled FT is a substitute FT,just like the case book says(even though the language is ambiguous).If you award the foul shooter 2 replacement FT's,aren't you penalizing B twice for committing 1 violation?Or awarding 1 shot for the violation and a possible extra shot for the official's mistake?What do you do if A then violates after the inadvertant whistle but before the FT is in the air,or while the first FT is in the air?By the logic that Mark is using,you would cancel one FT but still have a replacement FT.In other words,you have a violation by each team,but B still gets screwed because of the inadvertant whistle.I don't think that really is the intent of the rule.There is also no such animal like a "delayed dead ball" that you can use after the whistle is blown.You have to re-administer the FT to make the ball alive again.As I said before,I might be wrong-but I'd like to see a AR on this one before I admit it.

JR, 1st I don't think you are canceling a FT that was never taking. But, I think it is a moot point since the case play gives the procedure as i stated earlier. What is "AR"?

AR is "approved ruling",Bart.I should have been clearer.It just means I'd like to see someone from the FED rules committee issue an interpretation on this.I've ran this by three guys that I know that are rules interpreters in their areas.Two say that I am right-one says I'm wrong.All three say that there is no way that you can have a "delayed dead ball" in this sitch because the whistle killed the original FT if the ball is still in the shooter's hands.The two guys that agreed with me had the same concern that I did.A could commit a subsequent FT violation,giving one violation each way-but A would still get their original FT repeated.

Now that doesn't sit well with me, you are worried that A could commit a violation after the whistle has killed the play and caused a dead ball situation. I don't get it. I have been trying to ignore this and make it go away ;) , now I am going to have to go get my case book, I guess.

I'm guessing JR means AFTER the official gives the ball back to the shooter for the original FT, which the player never took. JR's concern is,(help me out JR if i am wrong) the FT'er gets his original FT after the whistle, which is the 1st. of a 2for1 b/c of the violation. Now, the teammate violates, so we have another whistle that kills the 1st shot, but b/c of the original violation the shooter still gets another shot.

If this was to happen then i would cancel the second shot as well.

JR, if what you are saying is true then how do you explain the last sentence of case play 6.7.5 situation( is this better BOB :) )? "Because B1 violated, in all cases, a substitute throw is awarded if the free throw attempt by A1 is unsuccessful". In situation A,C, the shot was never taken so you cannot say it was unsuccessful.

NFHS Casebook Play R6.S7.A5: A1 is at the free-thorw line for the second of two attempts. After the ball is at A1's disposal, B1 commits a lane violation. The administering official inadvertently sounds his/her whistle: (a) before A1 starts the free-throw motion; or (b) after the ball has been released; or (c) during A1's motion but before the release of the ball. RULING: Whether or not the whistle was sounded inadvertently it has the same result. In (a) and (c), the ball becomes dead immediately. In (b), the whistle does not cause the ball to become dead until the free throw ends. Because B1 violated, in all cases, a substitute throw is awarded if the free-throw attempt by A1 is unseuccessful. (R4-S2-A3)


What this Casebook Play is saying is that the in all three cases B1's violation is not to be ingnored, and in (a) and (c) A1 has yet to attempt the second of two attempts, therefore, when A1 makes is second attempt the officials are to use the delayed deadball signal (B1 has committed a free throw violation) and if the attempt is not successful, A1 is awarded a substitute throw. This logic is the same used in the NCAA A.R. referenced in an earlier posting as well as in a NFHS Casebook Play (which I have seen before but cannot find at the moment) when B1 commits a free throw violation during and instead of the official inadvertently sounding his/her whistle as in (a) or (c), Team A decides to request a timeout, which is granted. The granting of a timeout per Team A's request does not erase B1's free throw violation. After the timeout is over, A1's free throw attempt is administered in the exact same way as in the Casebook Play R6.S7.A5.

Bart,Rule 4-20-3 says a FT ends when the ball becomes dead.Rule6-7-5 says that the ball becomes dead when an official's whistle is blown.Casebook 6.7.5A says the same thing.According to this language,the FT was taken.It was ended by the inadvertant whistle.Now you have to straighten out the mess.Because B1 violated,you can ignore the inadvertant whistle and readminister the foul shot by giving a replacement FT for the violation.This(I think)fits the language of CB6.7.5.As I said,if you do otherwise you could possibly be penalizing B twice for committing one violation,or awarding an extra shot for the official's screwup..If A commits a FT violation at any time after the inadvertant whistle,but before the first replacement FT ends,A will still get a free FT--even though both teams have violated.That doesn't seem to fit the spirit and intent of the rules.

OK, I understand what you are saying. It takes me awhile. :)
Different situation using your interptation, A1 has the ball at the FT line, Official blows whistle for subs., ( official made a mistake, didn't realize the player had the ball), well A1, i just ended your FT. Sorry

By your interptation I think A1 is the one who loeses by not getting the 2 for 1. If the official had not blown the whistle A1 would have 2 to make 1.

Re: Re: Just a thought.
 

BkbBallRef and JR are wrong on this play.

The T made a mistake by sounding his whistle to soon, but the violation does not disappear. A1 gets three to make two (remember that rule in the NBA). The correct procedure is for the T and the L to give the delayed dead ball signal while A1 is shooting his first free throw. If the first free throw is successful then A1 only gets one more free throw. If the first free throw is not, then A1 gets two more free throws.

Bart's rule reference applies to both NCAA Men's/Women's as well as NFHS. Why, there is nothing in either rules codes that differ that would not allow a different interpretation. This logic goes back to when the NBCUSC was replaced by the NFHS and NCAA Rules Committees, and the casebook plays of the NBCUSC was accepted by both Committees. [/B][/QUOTE]Mark,the language above is where we disagree.I am saying that the first actual FT ended with the inadvertant whistle.It was unsuccessful because of the inadvertant whistle.The next FT is the replacement FT for the violation AND unsuccessful FT.You don't penalize the inadvertant whistle by awarding an extra FT for it.That fits the language of CB6.7.5A,I think.The maximum is two shots after the inadvertant whistle(barring further lane violations),not three FT's.The case book play you are looking for is CB9.1.4C.That play is different because AI is on the line for his original FT after the TO,not a replacement FT.The TO doesn't end the first FT,and it is still subject to the B violation.In the first case,the inadvertant whistle ended the first FT.

Yup,you ended his FT,Bart.Now you give him a replacement FT for your screw-up.If B violates during the replacement FT,you're gonna penalize that,too.What you aren't gonna do is give A an extra FT somewhere along the line.Good thread,eh?

Bart,I gotta agree with that basic premise.The problem is that you can screw B,also,if you throw an extra FT in for A.The key question is whether the first FT after the inadvertant whistle is regarded as a replacement FT(with the B violation applied) or as the the initial FT(with the B violation delayed).That's what I'd like to see an approved ruling on,because that could determine the number of FTs.

Good discussion JR.

Okay, I'm going to take a stab at this one. First, a free throw begins when the ball is bounced to the free thrower. Second, the free throw ends when a)the throw is successful, b)the throw is obviously unsuccessful, or c) the ball becomes dead by rule. In this case, since the ball was not in the air yet, the ball became dead by rule when the official blew the inadvertent whistle for the lane violation. Since the free throw began legally and ended legally without being "successful", then I would think that the next free throw attempted when play resumes is the substitute throw. Therefore, the player actually only "shoots" 2 free throws(the substitute and the 2nd originally awarded throw) even though 3 free throws are actually started. I would think the same logic would apply if team A called (excuse me, I mean requested) a timeout after a violation by B but before the FT was in the air. This subject came up at a beginners camp I attended a couple of years ago but the evaluators never really reached a clear concensus. Basically they were having the same disagreements we are having here.

What is so difficult about this play? NFHS Casebook Play R6.S7.A5 is exactly like the posted play. The Play even tells when the ball becomes dead and when it remains live. This is an open and shut play to administer if there is an inadvertent whistle.

In c) you say "dead by rule" then you use the word "successful".

You can't have it both ways. the FT can't be unsuccessful if you don't even shoot it. This is important because the case play says " FT attempt by A1 is unsuccessful.

Bart,if the freethrow shooter or a team-mate is called for a violation before the FT is attempted,you have an unsuccessful FT that was never shot.It was unsucessful because the official blew his whistle for the violation before the shot.That's backed up by the rules that I quoted before.In this case,it is unsucessful because of the inadvertant whistle for the B violation.Same concept--same rules apply.Same problem is still there,too.How many replacement shots do we give for the B violation yet to be penalized?MTDSr is 100% sure he's right.I'm not blessed with the same confidence(that's nothing new with some of the FED terminology),but obviously I think he may be wrong.The good thing about this thread is that I really CAN'T lose.If I'm right,I KNOW how to handle it properly if it comes up.If I'm wrong,I've LEARNED how to handle it properly if it comes up.No matter what,I come out ahead.:D

So how are you going to get the NF rules committee to change the wording?

I disagree on this. If the violation or inadvertant whistle happens before the FTer has started his/her motion, the try hasn't started. So, there can't be an unsuccessful try. You might, if A violates, penalize by not allowing the try, but that's different.

The last sentence in 6.7.5 says, "in all cases (meaning a, b, and c in the case) a substitute throw is awarded if the freethrow attempt by A1 is unsuccessful." In part (a) of the case, A1 has not had an attempt, so the statement must be telling us to allow another "first" attempt, then penalize for the violation, if needed.

Re: Re: Just a thought.
 

BkbBallRef and JR are wrong on this play.

The T made a mistake by sounding his whistle to soon, but the violation does not disappear. A1 gets three to make two (remember that rule in the NBA). The correct procedure is for the T and the L to give the delayed dead ball signal while A1 is shooting his first free throw. If the first free throw is successful then A1 only gets one more free throw. If the first free throw is not, then A1 gets two more free throws.

[/B][/QUOTE]Bob J.,I can see where you're coming from in your interpretation of the wording of the casebook play.Bart was saying the same thing.The problem that I still have is the literal interpretation of "successful" and "unsuccessful",and the context that they are being used in.If you take Mark's reply above,and if A commits a FT violation before the first FT with the delayed violation being applied is successful or unsuccessful,what exactly are you going to call?If I am reading Mark's reply above correctly,he is saying A1 will still get two more FT's because that FT was unsuccessful.This happens even though A committed the violation that made it unsuccessful,because we now have off-setting violations by each team.If someone can come up with something that doesn't make me give A an extra FT in this case,I'd be the happiest little dinosaur around.:DIt just doesn't seem fair. I'm just wondering if the CB play is worded properly to attain the real intent of the rule.

JR, Whenever you have a double violation the FT is canceled. So, you not going to get the 2nd FT as a result of B1's violation. The 2nd FT is not automatic, it is only a posibility if the 1st FT is missed.

Good point,Bart.Had to do some re-thinking.I can agree with that as long as everyone understands the difference between "cancelled" and "unsuccessful".They are two completely different animals in this play,and the word "cancel" is used in another CB play(CB9.1.4SIT.B-b).A couple of friends of mine,who are interpreters for their associations,are having fun with this one,too.An official interpretation(for this area)is supposed to be on the way.I think you got me leaning your way now.

OK JR, all togather now, lean forward and then lean back, now lean forward faster and lean back slowly, forward fast, back slow, forward fast, back slow, etc. Now your are going to ge there. :)