Whatever.
 

Where Rocky? What did I say Rocky? I have not had a single word [Beeped] during this or any conversation on this issue. Unlike some of you responding to me. I did not realize defending the attacks on me (that had nothing to do with the question I even asked in this post) was telling you that your opinion was stupid. Mark is about the only person that addressed the ACTUAL QUESTION. Most of you turned this into "you do not like Women's basketball and I do, shame on you for not liking Women's basketball as much as I do." :confused:

I guess I am just deeper than "if a shooter misses the rim, is it travelling" questions. Better yet, I can only ask "did I make a mistake" questions only soooooo much. I like talking about things that are deeper than the game and deeper than what happens between the line. I am sorry, my entertainment is not reduced to the stupid (there I go calling something stupid again) show "Friends." I guess watching CNN or Fox News Network does not wash with the people here.

Oh I am sorry, I said HELL. My bad. :)

Peace

JRut,

On one level I sympathize with your feelings regarding the responses to your posts in this thread. Since I do not know you, I must take you at your word when you make repeated claims, both expressed and implied, that you had no agenda when posing the questions you did in your initial post. I think that, if taken in the right spirit by all interested parties, that such questions may yield fruitful discussion.

It strikes me as disingenuous of you, however, to respond with such shock and dismay when people become defensive when such questions are posed in that manner. Being a college women's official yourself, you have been around enough high-quality women's officials to know that, while questions such as yours may be important--or at least interesting--they need to be asked with care. Certainly, in a perfect world, there would be no pattern of discrimination against women that would cause defensive and sometimes even irrational reactions to questions such as yours. But to expect otherwise is to ignore history.

At 26, I have decided to throw my hat into the men's ring and see where the chips fall. One of the people whose counsel I have sought several times over the last year is a women's NCAA official. He started out in the men's game, and switched almost exclusively to the women's game about six years ago. His advice has been invaluable to me, and I am very grateful to him for the time and effort he has spent to help me. Part of my appreciation for him manifests itself in the fact that I would never ask him, "Are men's officials better than women's?" (I apologize if I did not get your phrasing exactly right) Instead, I might ask him, "What, if anything, do you think are some things that officials do better in the women's game, and do you think that there's anything in your game that might better be done like the men's game prescribes?" Now, my friend might not take offense to the former phrasing of the question, but I couldn't possibly imagine him being offended by the latter form.

All of that said, I did think that some of the attacks on you were unjustified, and you certainly parried most of them admirably. My hope (boy, this statement is going to seem loaded) is that women's officials can be secure enough in themselves and the game that they enjoy (watching and officiating) that they can give the Ruts of the world the benefit of the doubt when they do ask questions like these; and, rather than go on the immediate attack, politely suggest alternative forms of the question, then following up with an honest and thoughtful response.

jb

Please!! Please! Pretty please? God, pleeeeeeeease!!!!

Wait a minute. I'm going to be away for a week anyway.

As Ms. Radnor would say, "Never mind!"

Chuck

To jbduke:
 

I will say this. I have no agenda. If I did, why would I bring that here? It would not be like I would accomplishing anything here if I did. :)

But I will say this about my career as a college official. It means absolutely nothing. I did a few very low level Women's college games. I have never worked with the Big Dogs that actually do the the major D1 levels. I did work with one D1 official this year, and the game was so bad, that very officials said, "this was the worst game I have ever worked." (That is for you Mick. Remember the Michigan team I told you about? :)) I only did these games because I was asked. But personally, I did not enjoy them as much as a Friday night Varsity Boy's game. But that is not the point, and never was the point.

Jbduke, this is much more about how these certain people do not like other things that I said and used this post to further make comments. This was not about this post or this question. I am in no way shocked by the reaction. Whether it be me or this posts the reaction was perdictable. I just find it funny that people care about anything I say that much. I am just one person, in one region of the country and most likely far, far away from anyone that would be around the people that my comments make them so upset. It is not like I am the Assignor of a major conference. But if I was, then they would be kissing up and agreeing with everything I say. And if you do not believe me, I was at a banquet last year where an assignor of a Men's D1 Conference told a women in the crowd during his speech, "I would not hire you." I did not see all these people dare contest his statements. Now I felt that was wrong too, but it was not like I was going to say, "that is wrong, you are a bad person." I filed the information, and moved on. Not like me saying anything was going to change his mind. I know my place. It is too bad that others do not know their place.

Peace

I WORK WOMENS COLLEGE BASKETBALL DIV I, II, AND III. THE MECHANICS ARE NOT THE SAME AS MENS, THE STYLE OF PLAY IS NOT THE SAME, ANDTHE POWERS THAT BE ARE NOT THE SAME. THERE IS A DIFFERENT PHILOSOPHY ON OFFICIATING THE GAME. WE TRY NOT TO CALL GAME INTERRUPTERS, BUT WE MUST CALL A HAND CHECK. A SLIGHT FOUL CAN BE IGNORED IF IT DOES NOT AFFECT THE PLAY, BUT TWO HANDS ON A POST PLAYER IS AUTOMATIC. WE ARE NOT LIMITED TO CALLING IN OUR PRIMARY, IF WE HAVE A GOOD LOOK, AND KNOW THAT A FOUL HAS COMMITTED.
THE SIMPLE REASON THAT THE MENS GAME GETS MORE ATTENTION, IS MONEY! THE TV CONTRACTS ARE THE KEY.
I WOULD LIKE TO SAY THAT I DON'T THINK IT IS GOOD TO CRITICIZE OFFICIALS WHEN YOU DON'T KNOW THEIR MECHANICS. WE HAVE ENOUGH PEOPLE DOING THAT ALREADY. (JUST ASK BILLY PACKER). IF WE DON'T SUPPORT OTHER OFFICIALS, IT IS CERTAIN THAT NO ONE ELSE WILL. BY THE WAY, THE OFFICIALS YOU WATCHED IN THE WOMENS TOURNEY WERE THERE FOR A REASON....THEY ARE VERY GOOD!.....

Ditto

Just to expand on this point. With the exception of a non bball play, the calls we do make out of our primary are 1) secondary areas i.e. the next competitive matchup, 2) specific plays we know there is a chance our partners may not get a good look. Most of these are plays we go over in camps.

well said, bart. you must officiate the womens game, because you and i are on the same page.

Pleas not all the CAPS!!!
 

Since you bring this discussion that has seemed to have died for awhile. Who was being critical? I was asking a question. And I have done and do Div 3. and NAIA Women's Basketball. So I understand the mechanics. I understand the philosophy differences. And I know officials that do them. As a matter of fact, I went to one of the meetings that was held in Chicago by O'Hare Airport for a Rules Meeting with Marcy Weston.

The question has nothing to do with support, it has to do with the differences and does individuals that want to move up in either, think there is a quality difference between the two. Considering that many assignors do not let you do both, and most Male officials want to do the Men's game over the Women's game, the competetion can and is higher there to get those slots. One the Women's side there are not as many Women (gender) officials period. And when you look at TV and the Big games, who do you see on the floor officiating most of the time? It is more and more becoming women and men that for the most part do not have the same experience at that high level, but they are there.

If you actually read the question that I asked, this was about what officials think about the way the game is being called on both sides. If we can talk about how a particular call was missed during the Men's Tournament, I think we can talk about the quality of the officials compared with each other. Especially when many of us have to make a decision as we move up the latter.

Money has to do with a lot of things, but it is not like the masses of women in this country are going to watch the Women's game. But they sure as hell can be found everywhere at the Men's Tournament. It is not like Men are the only one supporting Men's sports.

Peace

Yes, Do you know Lisa P. ? She is from AK.

I think that the women's games that I watched this year (both in person and on TV) were very consistantly officiated. That is to say that they were well done by officials who had reasonable control of the game. I also believe, that the more we/they "let them play" the worse we as officials look. Most fans see contact and want a foul on the other team. There are very few people outside our own little band of Zebras that understand the concept of "advantage gained" One thing I've noticed Particularly when watching women's games in person is that they really let it get rough. Not unfair, I think the officials that i've watched were very consistant. But, they really let them play.

Yes, Bart. I do know Lisa P. I have had the pleasure of working with her several times. She is a very good official.

In college, I am not so sure about "better" as "different". In high school, I would say that, for the most part, officials for boys games are more sharp then the officials for girls games. Some of that has to do with tempo of the game. The boys game is usually at a faster tempo then the girls. Also, some officials look at officiating girls games as a "step beneath them". This was evident this year in my wife's season. Even at the regional level there was one official who was more concerned with talking to the crowd and the other bench then calling the game. Usually he was out of position and his calls were very inconsistent. Come to find out he had called a DII game the night before and had a boys game the next nite. You could tell that he wasn't in to it.
As for the difference in gender of officials, I have not seen a difference. There are as many good female officals out there (percentage wise) as good. Same as men.