Does anyone think that Men's Officials are better than Women's officials?

And if you think so or think not, why?

I just see a lot of inconsistency in Women's games more than I do in Men's games. I walk away from looking at Women's games and not having a clue what was called. I do not get the same feeling as often in the Men's game. Am I the only one?

Or better yet, did anyone even pay attention to the Women's Final Four? I sure have not heard a sole talk about it. Where are all the PC people that cannot stand the fact that anyone would dare talk down Women's basketball? Have not heard any of you talking about the games, only talking about the Men's tournament.

What is the deal?

Peace

[Edited by JRutledge on Apr 4th, 2002 at 09:11 PM]

JR,

I don't know if "better" is the best way to put it, but it seems to me that the men's officials are more driven, more hardcore I guess. I see a lot of women's refs that are not as sharp and somewhat sloppy.

Maybe it is based on the level that they are calling. It is no secret that the women's game just does not have the flair that the men's game does. Getting beat down the floor by the ladies is not too common so maybe these folks are complacent with their fitness/hustle level.

Interesting, I see some of what you say just the opposite. The women's game is more defind as far as what they want called vs not called. It can give the appearence of being inconsistant when we call a touch foul and not call a hard foul. This is because the way they want the game called. Unless you are privy to the women's game it certainly will look inconsistant. As far as being "better", I think you will find good and bad on both sides. I will however agree the Womem's officials are moving up the ladder much faster because they want Women doing Women's games. The powers have publicly said, even if the man is slightly better than the Woman we want the Woman".

I don't know much about women's officiating. I do some HS girls ball and it's terrible in my area. It's no fun to work or watch. But as far as the college game, I have to just plead ignorance.

I did, however, watch quite a bit of the Women's Final Four, mostly b/c I live an hour or so from Storrs, CT. So I had some interest in seeing the UCONN women go for their undefeated season.

I didn't really feel strongly one way or the other about the officiating in the Final Four. I did notice that their mechanics are much more pro-oriented. There was only one time where I said "Wow, that was a terrible call". I will say that the officials had two excellent offensive fouls off-ball against UCONN last night.

Just my two cents. The only other thing is that I thought the Oklahoma coach was much more attractive than the UCONN coach :)

Chuck

Bart, you are absolutly correct!! I know for a fact in wiscosin that they don't want men doing women's games anymore. I have a friend who has worked d1 for over 20 years, he is a phenominal official, BUT he is a man. He usually did about 90 women's games a year, but this year was drastically cut to 45, and is down to around 15 the next year. they are slowly trying to eliminate him, dispite the fact he is a great official. It is sad, he will have no where to go because getting into men's ball is so difficult, it seems the men stick w/ it until death, like supreme court judges.

I also think this has a part in officials, most of the men in wisconsin that wk big games are very expierenced because they "are in it for life". But, i also believe there are a LOT of awsome female officials who are stepping up and conquering the world of basketball!! This is my 2 cents worth

Doesn't sound too slow to me. :(

Chuck

I am not talking about gender of the official.
 

I am only talking about Men's officials as compared to the ones that work Women's NCAA officials. Obviously their is more Men doing Men's NCAA games then the other way around. There was only one woman that did the NCAA Tournament, but I would almost bet on the Women's side, the number of men had to be 10 times that alone.

Peace

If you do hear a SOLE talk about anything, it is time to lay off the hippy lettuce -- ;)

That is really funny.
 

I think it would be more than lettuce. ;)

Peace

Re: That is really funny.
 

Rut,
My "E"-dress for you is wrong.
mick

[email protected]

Rut --

As I said earlier, I will be reviewing tapes of the last three games later, when I get them. I will expect from you astute and sophisticated answers to my questions!

juulie

Not sure what that means.
 

Juulie,

What the heck are you talking about?

Peace

JRutledge,

I think the reason we feel lost when watching a Women's game is because most of us are used to Mens games. Please allow me to say that I am not talking down Womens college basketball for I am a Womens college official and I did tune in to the Womens Final Four. I think we are just not use to watching Womens games that often, so we feel a little lost at times. We can lay some blame on the media. I think is bad that the Womens college season does not get exposure until tournament time. I DO NOT at all think Mens officials are better then Womens officials. We are all one body of people doing the same job at the sametime and working hard at what we do.

The reason I posted this.
 

John,

This has never been about gender of the officials, but the type of game that attracts us to officiate. I admit that when I started that going as high as the NBA was my dream. There was no WNBA or ABL for that matter when I started. I never imagined doing Women's or Girl's Basketball when I started. And now that I have done both, I still perfer the Men's game. And it appears that most feel the same, because if they did care all that much about the Women's game, then we would be talking about plays and calls all day long on this site. And to prove that even further, did anyone create a bracket for the Women's game?

For those that love to be critical of us that make our preference known, your silence has proven my point once again. If the Women's game or just officiating of the Women's game was so important, why are you not posting calls or situations that were weird or unusual. But then again, that would be PC and that does not fit in the equation.

This is why I asked, "is anyone paying attention to the Women's Tournament." By the posts and the silence, the answer was a resounding NOOOOOO. I admit I was not paying attention, do you so called "Women Officials" that love nothing but, doing the same? ;)

Peace

Re: Not sure what that means.
 

Rut, that reply was neither astute nor sophisticated. :D

Chuck

JR, I love officiating Women's BB. Unless you are a committed Women's official, i don't believe you will ever understand why we love the game. I do watch the Women's game when i get the chance. About the same as the men's game. It's like any game i watch, if it is a good game, it might keep my interest. You are correct about the interest in the Women's Final Four. I think the reasons are many, for one, this year, the games were not competitive like the men's games. Its all about numbers, there are not near as many great women players as men players. I do get many competitive games throughout the year. Like any game, when i get a great game, it makes it all worth it.

JR,

You bring up valid points in the discussion. I was not trying to create a gender issue either. I have to admit, when I first started as well, I was not even entertaining the idea of womens basketball, but now that I have done womens games, I enjoy it better then the mens games. Food for thought.

John

Re: The reason I posted this.
 

Jeff --

You have to admit there is some possibility that the women's games were so perfectly called, that there is simply nothing more to be said!!

juulie

I watched the Women's Final Four just like I watched the Men's...didn't have any big complaints or gripes about either one, so felt no desire to post about either Final Four...now that the question has been asked - again- I will say again that I usually don't respond to these types of posts, but some days I can't resist...are Men's officials bettter than Women's? What an assinine question - of course not. Are the mechanics, points of emphasis, floor coverages different? Yep...that may be why some are so lost watching the Women's games...I will also say that quite often I have no clue why Men's officials make/don't make certain calls, and why they make them from the Lead position when the C has a much better look at the play, but then I don't know the Men's mechanics, etc...I will also say that I had to choose several years ago between doing Men's or Women's ball...I choose Women's NCAA ball - knowing the quality of play would not be as high - but I chose Women's because I was sick of the egos on the Men's side...the attitude of people like Mr. Rutledge and many others I encountered doing Men's games really turned me off...I have found - so far - that the officials on the Women's side are much more fun to work with and to hang around with before and after games...again, just another person's two cents worth...

Will you get past your attitude?
 

What is my attitude? I guess my telling you that I perfer one level over another is more interesting to me? If I tell you that I perfer watching Women's tennis over Men's Tennis do I still have an attitude? Do I have an attitude because I feel that the Women's tennis is more competitive and that the Women's game is more exciting because there are more rallies and anyone can win on any given match? Or is it because you have proven yourself to be shallow and reduce this discussion into a debate over gender?

If I were to tell you that I perfer umpiring baseball over (Fast-Pitch)softball, because I actually played baseball and did not grow up playing softball. And because I played did not play softball and did play baseball, will you critisize me too because I have a preference between the two sports. I know several softball umpires that only umpire softball because of the time it takes to do a game as compared to baseball that can take much longer. I do not feel the need to be critical over them. Actually, more power to them.

I have got a better idea, maybe I should be critical of you because you like the Women's game over the Men's? Is something not wrong with you and your attitude?

I just simply asked the question mainly because I heard nothing about plays, calls or even anyone talking about the officiating in the Women's NCAA Tournament. I asked an earlier question "was anyone paying attention to the Women's Tournament," and many said no or that they did not even care. I watched the tournament mainly to watch the officials and I saw many things that seemed odd to me. I do college basketball in both so I wanted to watch the mechanics and the calls. I asked because it felt like no one else was paying attention and it appears that I was right. If you were to ask me what I perfer, I will always say the Men's. Actually I would personally rather doing a HS varsity boys game over any college Men's or Women's game any day at this point of my career. Or until I get the big D1 assignment which might never happen to me.

Grow up, this question was about the interest. Considering that the ratings for the UConn-Okalahoma Championship game was the highest rating ever for a college basketball game that ESPN has ever had, I would think that the officials that love talking basketball would be watching and coming here and discussing the happenings throughout the tournament. But as I see, I was right.

Peace

Say what? :confused:

I often wonder why the lead makes on the back calls. I think that is the one call i see the lead make and it is a bad call most of the time.

Interesting thread title: HONESTLY
 

JRUT...

Honestly, I have seen you be overly critical of women's basketball throughout your postings on this forum.

Honestly, I do not understand your agenda. Have you been spurned by someone (of female persuasion) that you feel the need to lash out?

Honestly, you have previously, passionately posted about the right of someone to maintain their beliefs and scolded those who have challenged that right. Yet, you are lambasting those who may not agree with your postition on this issue. I find it appalling that you even pose your original question.

Honestly, I find Women's basketball as exciting and rewarding as the Men's game.

Honestly, I am tired of your tirade, but acknowledge you have the right to continue. Many of our fellow Americans, men AND WOMEN have shed their blood fighting to defend freedom of speech.

Honestly, I hope you re-evaluate your attitude on this issue and move on in life.

PEACE


[Edited by williebfree on Apr 4th, 2002 at 11:01 PM]

OK, I will gladly answer.
 

Williebfree,

I have your answer for you.


************************************************** ******
Honestly, I have seen you be overly critical of women's basketball throughout your postings on this forum.

Last time I checked I can do that. I hear many being critical of the NBA and the officials that officiate it, I think they have that right too. Do you see me getting on here and saying, "WHY THE HELL ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT THE NBA? WHAT DO YOU HAVE AGAINST THE NBA? DO YOU HAVE PROBLEMS AGAINST THE NBA?"

Hell no, I do not care what you or others think about the NBA. That is what choices are all about.

************************************************** *********

Honestly, I do not understand your agenda. Have you been spurned by someone (of female persuasion) that you feel the need to lash out?

Hellooooo. Are the rules the same in NCAA Men's and Women's? Are the officials the same on both sides? Did you see the same officials working both Final Four Games? Are the mechanics the same? Why does the lead signal a 3 point shot in Women's and they do not in Men's? Why does the Women do not have any kind of 10 second count? Why is the 5 second count totally different in the Women's game as compared to the Men's game?

You must have never done a college game in your life. Or at least not on both sides. I have so I like to evaluate or debate the mechanics and calls of both. I have been to the Big 10 Men's Tournament the last 3 years and always like to talk about what I see. Sorry I have not had the money to go to both Men's and Women's Tournaments, the Women's Tournament is held during the week while the Men's Tournament mostly during the weekend. I would love to go to both, but I could not get my friends or myself to even go if I wanted to. But then again, you have a degree in Psychology so I guess you can figure out why I cannot afford to get off from all my other responsibilities to travel to two cities or stay a week in Indianapolis to watch both tournaments. But then again, you know don't you? :)
************************************************** *********


Honestly, you have previously, passionately posted about the right of someone to maintain their beliefs and scolded those who have challenged that right. Yet, you are lambasting those who may not agree with your postition on this issue. I find it appalling that you even pose your original question.

Did I tell you not to post or to have an opinion? I think all I did was ask a question. I just saw no posts about what happen and wanted to know why. If that offends you, find bigger things to be offended by. I was not even offended that no one cared or appeared to not care about Women's basketball (but you all are true fans right?)

************************************************** **********

Honestly, I find Women's basketball as exciting and rewarding as the Men's game.

OK, where was your posts praising the jobs of the officials. I did not even see anyone post who the officials are or have discussions about where they were from or how good they were. There was about 4 pages dedicated to who was doing the NCAA Men's Final Four. For some reason, I did not see your post about the Women's Final Four officials.

Also remember you said "I." That pertains to you, not me or anyone else. You have that right and more power to you. If I told you that I only date dark haired women or women with long hair, are you going to tell me you are are you going to then be mad because I do not like blondes with short hair? ;)

************************************************** *******

Honestly, I am tired of your tirade, but acknowledge you have the right to continue. Many of our fellow Americans, men AND WOMEN have shed their blood fighting to defend freedom of speech.

Do not read the posts then. :) This is a free country, I did not tell you what to read or what think about any level. I did not go to you personally to see what you thought. This is why it is called a discussion board. We are suppose to discuss things. ;)

************************************************** *******

Honestly, I hope you re-evaluate your attitdue on this issue and move on in life.

This is not life, this is an extremely small part of anything that goes on in this world. If you did not realize, people in the Middle East are killing each other on a daily basis. That is life my friend.

Considering that most of us are mainly talking about one side of the ball and the commentators from side of the ball, I just wanted to know why? I did not hear any of you talking about how stupid Mike Patrick was in his critisism of the officials, or Ann Woodward's comments about inconsistency of the officials and how they should be calling the game. I did not even see you discussing the issues of an article that suggested that the Men's coaches were all thrown into the same bracket, to almost insure that the Final Four would only have one team that was coached by a Man, if one at all. I did not see you talking about how much of a travesty that was?

If you are this easily offended, then please do not read any of my post. I guarantee you will be offended further. Because in my area and my associations, we have several discussions of what levels we do and why? As it relates to training and evaluation or even who we decide to vote in as board members or who we work for, you better be concerned with what level you want to do. Only 2 assignors that I work for, assign both Girls and Boys basketball. And they admittedly will not assign you to both in most cases, because everyone down to the coaches and Athletic Directors do not want to see you in both. And if the reason that people are only watching the Men's game is because they are trying to get better at watching the Men's game because that is all they care about, I wanted to know. I will admit that it is selfish on many levels and that I wanted to know. I sure as hell was not offended or even cared when this board went on and on about how stupid commentators are and they comments they make. What do you expect from people that are fans, former coaches and former players. But I would not call those obsessed that kept bringing up those points. If that is what they wanted to talk about, so be it. It was funny to me and I moved on.

Peace

[Edited by JRutledge on Apr 5th, 2002 at 12:55 AM]

Re: OK, I will gladly answer.
 

Interesting :(

It's like talking to a brick wall, or your idiot cousin at the family reunion...he asks a smart-*** question, then when people answer, he tells them to grow up and goes on another one of his binges...should have just ignored him to start with...sigh....

You've be around here as long as I have dj. Why would you expect any different? :(

Some things never change, ya know?

I know Tony, I know...another heavy sigh...

I guess I was not.
 

I did not ask you what you enjoy? I asked you if you felt that the Women's game was being called as well as the Men's? And if so, why?

And considering that the mechanics are different, the officials are different, and some of the rules are different, I was hoping that "intelligent" people could debate and discuss the differences if any between the two levels.

Since many of you like to debate how stupid commentators are about the rules and what they say about officials, I have heard several commentators talk about how bad "Women's" officials are. I just thought for those "intelligent" people this would be an interesting debate.

I guess I have to just sigh myself, but I expect more from people that debate and discuss comments from a person that does not "really" exist, and discuss the "stupid" comments from commentators that are former players and coaches. Helloooooo, they are FORMER COACHES AND PLAYERS!!!! :confused: You expect intelligent comments from coaches and players? Since when did that happen?

What the hell was I thinking. I guess I was not. Oh well, life goes on. :)

Peace

This is for Rut
 

Rut,
Here is a list of both womens & mens Final Four officiating crews and I will also say, all crews on both sides did a very outstanding job. Furthermore, as for you did not see this in a post before, I have to disagree with you, because I began a topic on both officiating crews for the mens' and womens' Final Four this year. Also, I think some of your more recent comments have been unprofessional as an official in regards to the responses of this topic and you should review that within yourself.
Womans' Final Four: Mens' Final Four:
Duke/Oklahoma Semi Oklahoma/Indiana Semi
Bryan Enterline Mike Kitts
John Morningstar David Libbey
Barb Smith Duke Edsall

Tennessee/UConn Semi Maryland/Kansas Semi
Sally Bell Tim Higgins
Angie Lewis Ed Hightower
Dennis DeMayo Ed Corbett

Womans' NCAA Final Mens' NCAA Final
Scott Yarbrough Jim Burr
Mellissa Barlow Richard Cartmell
Lisa Mattingly Tony Greene

This is for Rut (updated)
 

Rut,
Here is a list of both womens & mens Final Four officiating crews and I will also say, all crews on both sides did a very outstanding job. Furthermore, as for saying you did not see this in a post before, I have to disagree with you, because I began a topic on both officiating crews for the mens' and womens' Final Four this year. Also, I think some of your more recent comments have been unprofessional as an official in regards to the responses of this topic and you should review that within yourself.
Womans' Final Four:
Duke/Oklahoma Semi
Bryan Enterline
John Morningstar
Barb Smith

Tennessee/UConn Semi
Sally Bell
Angie Lewis
Dennis DeMayo

Womens' NCAA Final:
Scott Yarbrough
Mellissa Barlow
Lisa Mattingly

Mens' Final Four:
Oklahoma/Indiana Semi
Mike Kitts
David Libbey
Duke Edsell

Maryland/Kansas Semi
Tim Higgins
Ed Hightower
Ed Corbett

Mens' NCAA Final
Jim Burr
Richard Cartmell
Tony Greene

John,
 

This topic was brought up not to give a list of the officials. I personally do not care who the officials are, I only cared what people thought of the officiating of the two sides. There were several posts about the Men's Tournament. Whether it be a play or the individuals themselves that officate them, not one was about anything that I can recall that came directly from the NCAA Women's Tournament. And I raised the issue (and I always will raise issues) about conversations that I have had, or that I have heard others bring up when there is a discussion about both Men's and Women's Basketball. And most people I know and talk to, have an opinion about something related to the topic. I thought people on this "intelligent" board would want to have that same discussion. But I am starting to think that officials are more and more narrow minded on this board. Because if you do not believe or think they way they do, all that they can do is name call. No wonder fans and coaches hate many of us.

And about the "PROFESSIONALISM." John, I do not use the internet as a judge of people I will never meet or know. Especially to a bunch of people that use differnet names as aliases and alter-egos to hide who they truely are. This is me, take it or leave it. And if you were to ever meet me, I would say the same thing to you here as I would in a bar after the game. I stand by my comments. I always have and always will. I know what I say and mean what I say. You have the right to your opinion and so do I. ;)

Peace

Jeff-

I just got back from an NBA game and, I must say, I thought it was boring and not worth the money I spent. The officials did not do a particularly good job, and the game itself was quite tiresome. Even the dancers' performance was repetetive and inane. The announcer was unintelligible, and the boor behind me didn't make any interesting stupid remarks.

I am SO looking forward to the WNBA season which doesnt start for another five weeks or so. I don't understand your preference for the men's game, but of course you are entitled to your opinion. Still there really is no way to compare the two. It's apples and oranges.

OK
 

Juulie,

I am not a big NBA fan anyway. So who cares about the NBA. So I definitely do not give a damn about the WNBA. :(

You are right, apples and oranges. That is why some people do not like apples and other people like oranges.

Peace

Rut,

The only reason I made the commen to you about professionalism was because of some of your recent responses to other members of this forum. I understand that you are entitled to your opinion, just like I am entitled to my opinion, but I respectfully have to say that I would respond to fellow officials that I know or do not know the same way you have. That was my only reason for concern and the reason behind the my most recent comments to you. Thank you.

John

Know your place
 

I am assuming that you meant that you would not respond to fellow officials they way I did. That being said, officiating does not make me, if I were to give it up tomorrow life goes on. I stand by what I said and the way I said it. It is not like any of these individuals are people I work with or will work with. And just like anything else in my life, this thing I do has a place in life. And responding to a bunch of people that do not make me is not on the front of those priorities.

A wise person told me a long time ago, to "know your place in life." I do, does everyone else that gives a $hit about what I say do?

Peace

JRut,

I understand what you are saying about standing behind what you have already said and/or will say in the future, for I do the samething as well. However, the point I was trying to make is, I would probably not respond to fellow officials the way that you do sometimes. I am a firm believer that things that you say can comeback to haunt you down the road, because it gets back to an assignor you work for, or a crew you work for. I am not saying that I do not defend myself in the world of officiating, but I am saying that I may go about it in a little bit quieter, and less confronting fashion. Also, I know as well that people I talk to in this forum are officials I may never work with as well. However, I look at the world of officiating this way..... We are in this together. Brothers and sisters of officiating, like a family. Then, let us treat each other like a family. Just trying to be helpful and positive. Take care.

John

Then why the [bleep] are you posting to this thread?!?!?! There hasn't been one positive or helpful post in this whole thing!!! :D

Ok, I vote we let this one die now. Please?

Chuck

Chuck,

I totally agree with you. Let's let it be over with.

John

Must be regional.
 

Well if something I say comes back to "haunt me" (your words not mine) then so be it. If talking about things that officials talk about during association meetings, pregame conferences or any social or banquet that I have attended and someone gets offended, that to me says more about them then me. If all you have to do is raise an issue especially when this is talked about on soooo many different levels (talk radio, between officials, between fans and coaches) and you cannot ask a bunch of people that actually are involved in the sport very deeply, then that is just too bad. And if an assignor that holds deeper views about this who they assign their Boys Varsity and Men's College holds this conversation against me, then I do not want to work for them anyway. I know my place in life and I know my place in officiating. I am not going to wither and die because someone does not want me to officiate something because I made a comment or two. I am an independent contractor, I can work for every I want and who every I want. I already work for too many assignors and schools already. It would not hurt me to cut back on one or two. But I love to officiate in different places so I do it.

I did not curse out anyone. I did not call them names. All I did was voice and express my opinion about an issue that seems to come up everytime I do a game. Because my state has playoffs for both girls and boys held at different times and for the big and small schools separate, this tends to be a constant issue. I am so sorry that most of you are required to have your playoffs to have a boys then a girls game all the way to the finals. Here we do not, and especially when the playoff assignments are given, you always have this issue raised. Then it turns into who does what level and why?

If any of my comments offended people, that is unfortunate, but I am not going to lose sleep over it. And I am surely not going to stop telling people what I think. If you do not like it, do not read it. My life and your life will go on. Believe that. ;) I guess it is a Midwestern thing and city thang. Most people I know around here always voice their opinion, and we then get over it.

Peace

Actually, you did curse and you did call people names - you just went back later and deleted it and put something else in...and all ANYONE did was voice their opinion - you were the only one to jump all over anyone else about their opinion...

Sigh. I said "please"! :(

Chuck

Sorry Chuck...in the words of Roberto Duran - "no mas"...

OK, I've stayed out of this because it was getting really personal and nasty. But - let's try to get back to the original question, which I think is a valid one. Is the quality of men's officiating higher than that of women's officiating?

Of course, any answer to this would be a broad generalization (and Juulie, I mean "broad" in the dictionary definition sense of the word, not slang). ;)

I think it's fair to say that in many associations, there are a lot of experienced officials who will not accept or ask for assignments to girl's games. It seems to be some kind of "image" thing. These officials feel that they will be "downgrading" or something like that if they do girl's games. Because they will not do them, and because these groups consist of many very good officials, it naturally follows that there is a higher percentage of top officials doing boy's and men's games than girl's and women's games.

Now, does this mean that there aren't any great officials doing girl's and women's games? Of course not. Does this mean that all officials doing boy's and men's games are great? Again, of course not. It doesn't even mean that on any given game night, the quality of officials doing boy's and men's games is higher than the quality of officials doing girl's and women's games.

It just means that in general, better officials are more likely to be working boy's and men's games by choice.

There - I hope I contributed without any personal attacks or getting nasty. Plus - I made sure I didn't offend my buddy, Juulie. :) I should get double points for that.

THANK YOU!!!!!
 

Good Lord, Finally a person of reason. This is what I was asking for. This is a constant debate with many officials that I know. And this is why I asked the "stupid" question to begin with. I wanted to see what "intelligent" people would thought. Especially when commentators are ranting about how bad Women's Officials were. And since many of us that move up are told to choose, I wanted to see if others felt the same way.

Peace

Whatever.
 

Where Rocky? What did I say Rocky? I have not had a single word [Beeped] during this or any conversation on this issue. Unlike some of you responding to me. I did not realize defending the attacks on me (that had nothing to do with the question I even asked in this post) was telling you that your opinion was stupid. Mark is about the only person that addressed the ACTUAL QUESTION. Most of you turned this into "you do not like Women's basketball and I do, shame on you for not liking Women's basketball as much as I do." :confused:

I guess I am just deeper than "if a shooter misses the rim, is it travelling" questions. Better yet, I can only ask "did I make a mistake" questions only soooooo much. I like talking about things that are deeper than the game and deeper than what happens between the line. I am sorry, my entertainment is not reduced to the stupid (there I go calling something stupid again) show "Friends." I guess watching CNN or Fox News Network does not wash with the people here.

Oh I am sorry, I said HELL. My bad. :)

Peace

JRut,

On one level I sympathize with your feelings regarding the responses to your posts in this thread. Since I do not know you, I must take you at your word when you make repeated claims, both expressed and implied, that you had no agenda when posing the questions you did in your initial post. I think that, if taken in the right spirit by all interested parties, that such questions may yield fruitful discussion.

It strikes me as disingenuous of you, however, to respond with such shock and dismay when people become defensive when such questions are posed in that manner. Being a college women's official yourself, you have been around enough high-quality women's officials to know that, while questions such as yours may be important--or at least interesting--they need to be asked with care. Certainly, in a perfect world, there would be no pattern of discrimination against women that would cause defensive and sometimes even irrational reactions to questions such as yours. But to expect otherwise is to ignore history.

At 26, I have decided to throw my hat into the men's ring and see where the chips fall. One of the people whose counsel I have sought several times over the last year is a women's NCAA official. He started out in the men's game, and switched almost exclusively to the women's game about six years ago. His advice has been invaluable to me, and I am very grateful to him for the time and effort he has spent to help me. Part of my appreciation for him manifests itself in the fact that I would never ask him, "Are men's officials better than women's?" (I apologize if I did not get your phrasing exactly right) Instead, I might ask him, "What, if anything, do you think are some things that officials do better in the women's game, and do you think that there's anything in your game that might better be done like the men's game prescribes?" Now, my friend might not take offense to the former phrasing of the question, but I couldn't possibly imagine him being offended by the latter form.

All of that said, I did think that some of the attacks on you were unjustified, and you certainly parried most of them admirably. My hope (boy, this statement is going to seem loaded) is that women's officials can be secure enough in themselves and the game that they enjoy (watching and officiating) that they can give the Ruts of the world the benefit of the doubt when they do ask questions like these; and, rather than go on the immediate attack, politely suggest alternative forms of the question, then following up with an honest and thoughtful response.

jb

Please!! Please! Pretty please? God, pleeeeeeeease!!!!

Wait a minute. I'm going to be away for a week anyway.

As Ms. Radnor would say, "Never mind!"

Chuck

To jbduke:
 

I will say this. I have no agenda. If I did, why would I bring that here? It would not be like I would accomplishing anything here if I did. :)

But I will say this about my career as a college official. It means absolutely nothing. I did a few very low level Women's college games. I have never worked with the Big Dogs that actually do the the major D1 levels. I did work with one D1 official this year, and the game was so bad, that very officials said, "this was the worst game I have ever worked." (That is for you Mick. Remember the Michigan team I told you about? :)) I only did these games because I was asked. But personally, I did not enjoy them as much as a Friday night Varsity Boy's game. But that is not the point, and never was the point.

Jbduke, this is much more about how these certain people do not like other things that I said and used this post to further make comments. This was not about this post or this question. I am in no way shocked by the reaction. Whether it be me or this posts the reaction was perdictable. I just find it funny that people care about anything I say that much. I am just one person, in one region of the country and most likely far, far away from anyone that would be around the people that my comments make them so upset. It is not like I am the Assignor of a major conference. But if I was, then they would be kissing up and agreeing with everything I say. And if you do not believe me, I was at a banquet last year where an assignor of a Men's D1 Conference told a women in the crowd during his speech, "I would not hire you." I did not see all these people dare contest his statements. Now I felt that was wrong too, but it was not like I was going to say, "that is wrong, you are a bad person." I filed the information, and moved on. Not like me saying anything was going to change his mind. I know my place. It is too bad that others do not know their place.

Peace

I WORK WOMENS COLLEGE BASKETBALL DIV I, II, AND III. THE MECHANICS ARE NOT THE SAME AS MENS, THE STYLE OF PLAY IS NOT THE SAME, ANDTHE POWERS THAT BE ARE NOT THE SAME. THERE IS A DIFFERENT PHILOSOPHY ON OFFICIATING THE GAME. WE TRY NOT TO CALL GAME INTERRUPTERS, BUT WE MUST CALL A HAND CHECK. A SLIGHT FOUL CAN BE IGNORED IF IT DOES NOT AFFECT THE PLAY, BUT TWO HANDS ON A POST PLAYER IS AUTOMATIC. WE ARE NOT LIMITED TO CALLING IN OUR PRIMARY, IF WE HAVE A GOOD LOOK, AND KNOW THAT A FOUL HAS COMMITTED.
THE SIMPLE REASON THAT THE MENS GAME GETS MORE ATTENTION, IS MONEY! THE TV CONTRACTS ARE THE KEY.
I WOULD LIKE TO SAY THAT I DON'T THINK IT IS GOOD TO CRITICIZE OFFICIALS WHEN YOU DON'T KNOW THEIR MECHANICS. WE HAVE ENOUGH PEOPLE DOING THAT ALREADY. (JUST ASK BILLY PACKER). IF WE DON'T SUPPORT OTHER OFFICIALS, IT IS CERTAIN THAT NO ONE ELSE WILL. BY THE WAY, THE OFFICIALS YOU WATCHED IN THE WOMENS TOURNEY WERE THERE FOR A REASON....THEY ARE VERY GOOD!.....

Ditto

Just to expand on this point. With the exception of a non bball play, the calls we do make out of our primary are 1) secondary areas i.e. the next competitive matchup, 2) specific plays we know there is a chance our partners may not get a good look. Most of these are plays we go over in camps.

well said, bart. you must officiate the womens game, because you and i are on the same page.

Pleas not all the CAPS!!!
 

Since you bring this discussion that has seemed to have died for awhile. Who was being critical? I was asking a question. And I have done and do Div 3. and NAIA Women's Basketball. So I understand the mechanics. I understand the philosophy differences. And I know officials that do them. As a matter of fact, I went to one of the meetings that was held in Chicago by O'Hare Airport for a Rules Meeting with Marcy Weston.

The question has nothing to do with support, it has to do with the differences and does individuals that want to move up in either, think there is a quality difference between the two. Considering that many assignors do not let you do both, and most Male officials want to do the Men's game over the Women's game, the competetion can and is higher there to get those slots. One the Women's side there are not as many Women (gender) officials period. And when you look at TV and the Big games, who do you see on the floor officiating most of the time? It is more and more becoming women and men that for the most part do not have the same experience at that high level, but they are there.

If you actually read the question that I asked, this was about what officials think about the way the game is being called on both sides. If we can talk about how a particular call was missed during the Men's Tournament, I think we can talk about the quality of the officials compared with each other. Especially when many of us have to make a decision as we move up the latter.

Money has to do with a lot of things, but it is not like the masses of women in this country are going to watch the Women's game. But they sure as hell can be found everywhere at the Men's Tournament. It is not like Men are the only one supporting Men's sports.

Peace

Yes, Do you know Lisa P. ? She is from AK.

I think that the women's games that I watched this year (both in person and on TV) were very consistantly officiated. That is to say that they were well done by officials who had reasonable control of the game. I also believe, that the more we/they "let them play" the worse we as officials look. Most fans see contact and want a foul on the other team. There are very few people outside our own little band of Zebras that understand the concept of "advantage gained" One thing I've noticed Particularly when watching women's games in person is that they really let it get rough. Not unfair, I think the officials that i've watched were very consistant. But, they really let them play.

Yes, Bart. I do know Lisa P. I have had the pleasure of working with her several times. She is a very good official.

In college, I am not so sure about "better" as "different". In high school, I would say that, for the most part, officials for boys games are more sharp then the officials for girls games. Some of that has to do with tempo of the game. The boys game is usually at a faster tempo then the girls. Also, some officials look at officiating girls games as a "step beneath them". This was evident this year in my wife's season. Even at the regional level there was one official who was more concerned with talking to the crowd and the other bench then calling the game. Usually he was out of position and his calls were very inconsistent. Come to find out he had called a DII game the night before and had a boys game the next nite. You could tell that he wasn't in to it.
As for the difference in gender of officials, I have not seen a difference. There are as many good female officals out there (percentage wise) as good. Same as men.