Defender intentionally falls onto hands and knees...

[PSidbury]

12-14 yr old boys summer league using NFHS Rules (with a few modifications):

A fairly large A-player has been establishing position on the block and with ball "backing-down" B-defender with regularity. B-defender is not flopping nor is allowing himself to be run over, but is at times is being forcefully pushed-off/bounced-off his position as A-player backs-up toward hoop.

At half time B-coach complains about the A-player aggressive backing-down, pushing his B-defender off his "position". I basically shrug and say I will keep an eye out for anything worth of an offensive foul.
I mention this to my crewmate, but he just brushes it off as more or less some acceptable hard bumping and the smaller B-player not allowing himself to be run over.

So, on the first A-possession, sure enough the ball goes in to the A-forward and he feels the B-player on his back, so he begins to back down.

However… the B-defender immediately drops to his hands and knees (within his space) and… you guessed it… allows the A-player to tumble over him.

It was a two-man crew and I was trail, so lead official immediately calls the foul… on kneeling B-player.

B-coach goes irate; wanting a travel called on A-player. Lead official says to the coach, "Your player tripped him, coach, and not only that it was unsportsmanlike and intentional."

I mean, part of me equates this to the classic Kevin McHale "pulling the chair out from underneath" maneuver, but on the other hand falling to one’s hands and knees does seem like crossing the line into intentional unsportsmanlike conduct.

Is something like this in the NFHS Rules/casebook?

What if the player decided to get on his hands and knees away from the ball or other players?

What would you guys have called?

Thanks,

P.S. Crewmate says to me after the game, "I'm pretty sure the coach told the kid to do that."

[Adam]

Intentional foul. Not a basketball play, and he intentionally tripped the player. He didn't just pull the chair out, he stuck his leg in there to make sure the player fell. If he'd have just pulled the chair out, he'd have been fine. Just participate in the mutual lean then step away. A1 travels and all is right with the world.

Alternatively, he could have "lost his balance" and fallen over, allowing the ball handler to fall with him. Easy PC foul.

P.S. Your partner was right.

[PSidbury]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

He didn't just pull the chair out, he stuck his leg in there to make sure the player fell.

Not quite.
I don't know if I explained it well... not that it changes the call... but the defensive player did not stick a leg out, he just fell to his hands and knees (in his space) and the offensive player backed up and toppled over the defensive player's back.

Regardless... I agree, it is unsportsmanlike and not a basketball move... and the forceful displacement should have been cleaned-up early on.

Always learning...

Thanks

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by PSidbury

Not quite.
I don't know if I explained it well... not that it changes the call... but the defensive player did not stick a leg out, he just fell to his hands and knees (in his space) and the offensive player backed up and toppled over the defensive player's back.

Regardless... I agree, it is unsportsmanlike and not a basketball move.

Thanks

Please direct me to a rule in the NFHS book which says that the defender's stance is illegal, and furthermore that it is a foul on him when the opponent backs up, causes the contact with the stationary defender, and falls over him.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by PSidbury

Not quite.
I don't know if I explained it well... not that it changes the call... but the defensive player did not stick a leg out, he just fell to his hands and knees (in his space) and the offensive player backed up and toppled over the defensive player's back.

Regardless... I agree, it is unsportsmanlike and not a basketball move... and the forceful displacement should have been cleaned-up early on.

Always learning...

Thanks

My "leg out" comment was metaphorical, like the chair. My point was, if he'd just been leaning and then removed himself from the situation, it would be clean. By purposefully placing himself in the position to trip his opponent (who apparently didn't see him), I think he's engaging in a non-basketball play where the intent is clearly malicious.

That said, I missed the part where you said the defender was being pushed out of his position. JR and Nevada are right; it's clearly a PC foul. I'm not sure the justification for not calling this.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

....... it's clearly a PC foul. I'm not sure the justification for not calling this.

This is a pretty common misconception, I think. Hopefully, it's mainly among only the spectators. Years ago, friends were critical of a PC call I had made against their son, and they had video of the game. Later, I saw the father and was told, "We watched the video, and that was a bad call. Nobody fell down or anything."

[Da Official]

After hearing what happened, the coach definitely has valid gripes about the lack of calls on the block and the foul on the defense player.

Live and learn.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by PSidbury

12-14 yr old boys summer league using NFHS Rules (with a few modifications):

A fairly large A-player has been establishing position on the block and with ball "backing-down" B-defender with regularity. B-defender is not flopping nor is allowing himself to be run over, but is at times is being forcefully pushed-off/bounced-off his position as A-player backs-up toward hoop.

At half time B-coach complains about the A-player aggressive backing-down, pushing his B-defender off his "position". I basically shrug and say I will keep an eye out for anything worth of an offensive foul.
I mention this to my crewmate, but he just brushes it off as more or less some acceptable hard bumping and the smaller B-player not allowing himself to be run over.

So, on the first A-possession, sure enough the ball goes in to the A-forward and he feels the B-player on his back, so he begins to back down.

However… the B-defender immediately drops to his hands and knees (within his space) and… you guessed it… allows the A-player to tumble over him.

It was a two-man crew and I was trail, so lead official immediately calls the foul… on kneeling B-player.

B-coach goes irate; wanting a travel called on A-player. Lead official says to the coach, "Your player tripped him, coach, and not only that it was unsportsmanlike and intentional."

I mean, part of me equates this to the classic Kevin McHale "pulling the chair out from underneath" maneuver, but on the other hand falling to one’s hands and knees does seem like crossing the line into intentional unsportsmanlike conduct.

Is something like this in the NFHS Rules/casebook?

What if the player decided to get on his hands and knees away from the ball or other players?

What would you guys have called?

Thanks,

P.S. Crewmate says to me after the game, "I'm pretty sure the coach told the kid to do that."

The coach was correct. You guys were failing to properly call a PC foul on the big kid from Team A for displacing his defender.

Given that what else is the smaller defender from Team B now to do? I have no trouble believing that the coach and player conspired to take the hands and knees position as a result of not getting a PC call in the first half.

Now if you would like to debate the legality of the defender's stance, we can do that. I'll start by saying that the NCAA would consider this to not be a legal guarding position, but the NFHS has no such ruling. In fact, the NFHS used to have a case book play that stated any player is entilted to any spot on the floor as long as he gets there first and without illegally contacting an opponent to do so, even if this position happens to be temporarily lying on the floor.

Whatever you decide to do at this point is up to you guys, but just know that you and your partner caused this mess by failing to properly enforce the rules regarding displacement in the first place.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Whatever you decide to do at this point is up to you guys, but just know that you and your partner caused this mess by failing to properly enforce the rules regarding displacement in the first place.

Amen.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by PSidbury

12-14 yr old boys summer league using NFHS Rules (with a few modifications):

A fairly large A-player has been establishing position on the block and with ball "backing-down" B-defender with regularity. B-defender is not flopping nor is allowing himself to be run over, but is at times is being forcefully pushed-off/bounced-off his position as A-player backs-up toward hoop.

Is something like this in the NFHS Rules/casebook?

Yup, there sureashell is something in the NFHS rule book. And that something is that it is a PLAYER CONTROL FOUL every damn time a post player forcefully pushes/bounces a defender out of his legal position.

Note...every damn time!

FOUL!!!

Letting that go, especially in that age group, is absolutely ridiculous.

Any problems that occurred in the game were you're own making. That ain't the NBA.

Lah me.......unbelievable....

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Yup, there sureashell is something in the NFHS rule book. And that something is that it is a PLAYER CONTROL FOUL every damn time a post player forcefully pushes/bounces a defender out of his legal position.

Note...every damn time!

FOUL!!!

Letting that go, especially in that age group, is absolutely ridiculous.

Any problems that occurred in the game were you're own making. That ain't the NBA.

Lah me.......unbelievable....

Run for your lives!!!

The dinosaur and I are in complete agreement, which has to be one of the signs of the end of the world.

[Mark Padgett]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Run for your lives!!!

The dinosaur and I are in complete agreement, which has to be one of the signs of the end of the world.

And I just saw these guys outside my window!!! What's next - Billy Packer actually saying something intelligent? Naw - that's way too impossible.

[Mark Padgett]

Originally Posted by PSidbury

However… the B-defender immediately drops to his hands and knees

But - was he barking?

[rockyroad]

Originally Posted by PSidbury

but is at times is being forcefully pushed-off/bounced-off his position as A-player backs-up toward hoop.

At half time B-coach complains about the A-player aggressive backing-down, pushing his B-defender off his "position". I basically shrug and say I will keep an eye out for anything worth of an offensive foul.
I mention this to my crewmate, but he just brushes it off as more or less some acceptable hard bumping and the smaller B-player not allowing himself to be run over.

So could you tell us what - in your mind- IS worthy of an offensive foul?? Seems to me that this is exactly what the case book and rule books talk about when referring to the offensive player "backing down" the defender. Had this been called even once in the first half, this little lizard would never have grown into the dinosaur that it became.

[JugglingReferee]

I've been lucky in that I've only experienced two athletic injuries in my life. One was because this foul wasn't called. The official didn't believe that this is a foul, because the contact was "so minor". In the end, the offender backed me down, jumped up for a turn-around jumper, came down oddly, and landed on my ankle. Crutches for 3 weeks.

Call the foul! It's quite an easy call.