I'm sorry if I offend any of you. There are some very good refs out there, but some are just bad. Yesterday I had a basketball game. The refs were horrible! They called traveling on me when I made a basket. I watched the tape over and over again in slow motion and it wasn't traveling. And my friend took and awesome charge and they called bloking on her! She was set and didn't lean into at all! They wouldn't call fouls on the other team when we were shooting and they called a foul on me on a jump ball. And what really screwed us over was that they wouldn't give us a time out in the final seconds when they should have. My coach was so mad and my friend even cried. I tried so hard in that game and it went for nothing because two dumb refs couldn't call a fair game. To you, a game is you go out blow your whistle at times and go home. To us, the players, basketball games are what we look forward to. They are what we practice for 3 hours after school everyday for. And it is not fair for someone to blow a game for us that isn't even on our team. I am not making excuses for my teams mistakes but I think that it is a refs job to call a fair game. Is that too much to ask for?

So you are telling us that throughout your entire game the only ones who made any mistakes were the officials? No missed lay-ups, no turn overs, no (legitimate) fouls, no one walked, or double dribbled, or stepped out of bounds and these two morons were total buffoons and had no business out there in the midst of such perfection?

You need to learn really, really fast that officials do not affect the outcome of games. I'm sure that somewhere along the way, officials have cheated, but in general it does not exist. Officials make far fewer mistakes than players do. And, we take our jobs seriously--When I call a bad game, I don't just go home and forget about it--it bothers me. It also makes me better when I learn from my mistakes. REMEMBER THIS FOR AS LONG AS YOU PLAY SPORTS--When you make excuses, you forfeit your ability to improve.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Geneva">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by star_01 on 01-23-2000 04:13 PM
I'm sorry if I offend any of you. There are some very good refs out there, but some are just bad. Yesterday I had a basketball game. The refs were horrible! They called traveling on me when I made a basket. I watched the tape over and over again in slow motion and it wasn't traveling. And my friend took and awesome charge and they called bloking on her! She was set and didn't lean into at all! They wouldn't call fouls on the other team when we were shooting and they called a foul on me on a jump ball. And what really screwed us over was that they wouldn't give us a time out in the final seconds when they should have. My coach was so mad and my friend even cried. I tried so hard in that game and it went for nothing because two dumb refs couldn't call a fair game. To you, a game is you go out blow your whistle at times and go home. To us, the players, basketball games are what we look forward to. They are what we practice for 3 hours after school everyday for. And it is not fair for someone to blow a game for us that isn't even on our team. I am not making excuses for my teams mistakes but I think that it is a refs job to call a fair game. Is that too much to ask for?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

star_01,

I hope most of us will NOT be offended. And we should all agree that there are good refs and bad refs.

In your game, you learned a valuable lesson. It's called LIFE 101. As you experience more and more, you'll find that things will happen to you that is outside of your control. Part of the time it may work against you, and part of the time you may benefit from it. Basketball, while being a participation sport, is also a reflection of life.

Officials, like players and coaches, are not perfect. I bet if you watch the entire tape, you'll see other calls that the officials missed. I'll offer words of wisdom for you and your teammates, "be thankful that you had refs that cared enough about the kids and the game to be there so that you could participate!" I want you to know that we realize that we are going to miss calls. That's part of officiating --- but we do try to be fair. And that's including even the 'bad' refs!

Somewhere down the line, maybe not tomorrow or next week, you will receive the good fortune of somebody's bad judgement. When it happens, accept it honorably, but remember the'hurt' you feel now ---- because somebody else will be in your shoes and they will be feel your 'hurt'!

I can tell you from many years of officiating (and I have worked with people not only from my state, but from outside my state) that I have NEVER worked with anyone that PURPOSELY tried to miss a call. Try to accept it, because you can't change it.

KDM

Star -

In the title of your post you say there is a "need for a change." It made me think that this forum is probably part of a change that's already started.

As a rookie ref, I have to tell you that this forum has been invaluable to me in terms of helping me think about the game correctly (from the officiating standpoint).

It's also encouraging that players (like yourself) and coaches post here with questions and concerns.

There is a need for a change for many. There are definitely bad refs. There are also many, many coaches, players, parents, and commentators who don't fully understand the game or its rules. There are plenty of these people who think that making calls from the sidelines or the seats is a legitimate part of a basketball game.

My only point is that most of the posts I see here come from officials who are working on their games and trying to be the best they can be. Maybe you could politely give this address to the refs in your league.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Geneva">quote:</font><HR>To you, a game is you go out blow your
whistle at times and go home. To us, the players, basketball games are what we look
forward to. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You couldn't be more wrong about this... Most of us look forward to every game, prepare for it physically and mentally, and try our hardest every single game.

As a player, coach, or fan it is impossible to be unbiased. Even when reviewing on videotape. Most non-referees do not even know the most basic of rules (3 seconds, backcourt, etc.). Putting all that aside, it is very possible and even likely that the officials in your game missed some calls. As has been stated, you have no option other than to play on.

As far as officials not affecting the outcome of games, I will have to disagree. We can affect the outcome of games. If we didn't there wouldn't be NCAA and Professional officials getting fined, suspended, etc. for a problem in a game (usually administrative). Weird things can happen that cause us administrative problems that have an affect on the game. We need to acknowledge this and be prepared for it.

My (unsolicited) advice to you on the whole ordeal would be to put it behind you and go out and work even harder the next time. Good advice for use in general life, too!

Just another note agreeing with my colleagues. I don't know what level you play at, but recognize that refs have varying degrees of experience just like players do. Even so,every referee I know wants to do his/her best and "get it right." Most know when they've had an "off" night and feel badly, just like a player who's had a bad game. And to most of us, basketball is just as important as you feel it is to you--we want to be perceived as good officials by our peers, and we spend hours studying and trying to improve ourselves. So, time to stop passing out all that blame and feeling sorry for yourself, and time to accept the imperfect nature of humans--whether they are basketball players or referees.

I agree with all of the above comments.

We have good and bad refs.
We have experienced/non-experienced refs.
We have good nights/bad nights.

We do not just blow our whistle and go home. Most fans/players, and some coaches do not realize what we have to do to become good refs. We must train and study.
Each year to retain our license, we must take a test and attend a rules interp meeting, and every three years (max), we must attend a six-hour camp.

This doesn't include our hours of reading and studing rules book, case books, referee magazine, reviewing game tapes, and attending association meetings. We do all of this because we love basketball and/or high school athletics.

And as someone else said,
"when a ref has a bad game, he/she usually knows it." A good ref learns form it.

If you substitute coach or player for ref, it in the above comment, I think you can also agree (as a coach or player).

Yes, I know how you feel. I've blown the whistle at the wrong time, made the wrong call. We will try to make it up during the game but we don't always. Your comments about us officials showing up calling the game, then going home is all wrong. Yes, we have jobs outside of officiating, but you have school. We are at the game an hour early, we talk about every conceivible possibility and how we are going to handle it. We read the rule books, case books, mechanics books more than you care to imagine. We call rec games, YMCA games, we attend camps, and we call anything we get our hands on and we watch video tape too. Why? So we can call your game just a little bit better. Are we perfect? No. We blow our whistle too fast to make a phantom travel call. We call block when we should have called charge. We call a hack when the defender was straight up.

Are there bad refs? yes. Just like there are bad teachers, lawyers, doctors, engineers, journalist, basketball players and whatever line of work you wish to pursue. We try to weed them out before they call a varsity game, but it doesn't always happen. You probably won't find too many of them on this board. After all, you don't hang out on this board if you didn't have the desire to learn and improve.

Star --

You might be right. The officials at your game may not have done a very good job. But, you can help improve the level of officiating in your area.

How? Become an official yourself -- if not now, then as soon as you are done playing. We'll be glad to help.

Star,

Sorry you had a bad experience! But thats all it was an experience. What grade level do you play? Were the referees (by contract) certified to do High School ball? Did the referees have professional training? You talked about needing changes, perhaps the change's you are looking for start with the administration of the school you attend.

------------------
Don

I personally love to officiate. For me it isn't just going out to 'blow my whistle'. I am very excited the day of officiating, and i actually become a little nervous before tip off, because i care and i want to do a good job. I am not offended by your remarks, but I want you to understand that officials do care and are fair.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Geneva">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by star_01 on 01-23-2000 04:13 PM
I'm sorry if I offend any of you. There are some very good refs out there, but some are just bad. Yesterday I had a basketball game. The refs were horrible! They called traveling on me when I made a basket. I watched the tape over and over again in slow motion and it wasn't traveling. And my friend took and awesome charge and they called bloking on her! She was set and didn't lean into at all! They wouldn't call fouls on the other team when we were shooting and they called a foul on me on a jump ball. And what really screwed us over was that they wouldn't give us a time out in the final seconds when they should have. My coach was so mad and my friend even cried. I tried so hard in that game and it went for nothing because two dumb refs couldn't call a fair game. To you, a game is you go out blow your whistle at times and go home. To us, the players, basketball games are what we look forward to. They are what we practice for 3 hours after school everyday for. And it is not fair for someone to blow a game for us that isn't even on our team. I am not making excuses for my teams mistakes but I think that it is a refs job to call a fair game. Is that too much to ask for?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Star
I hope that all of these referees' replies have helped to change your perspective a bit. But perhaps you would prefer a different perspective - that of a coach. I have coached a couple hundred games over many years in several sports, and have had numerous calls go against me. I have also found myself letting out sighs of relief when my center with four fouls gets away with an outrageous hack while blocking a layup. I even pull my players aside and let them know about the violation that they committed that was missed by the referee, so they won't do it again and get it called.

The calls go both ways, even though I always think I lost more than I got (and so does that guy on the other bench). I have seen good refs and bad. I contact my league regarding both (and your coach should do the same), although I observe referees in more than one game before reporting their transgressions. I know that I wouldn't want a single ugly game that one of my teams played or that I coached to cause someone to think my players were all horrible or that i am somehow unfit to coach.

I also do not let a couple of judgement calls affect my asessment of a referee's performance. You need to ask yourself if they were consistent in what they called, in control of the game, allowed play to flow, alert and attentive, in position to make the right calls, aware of game situations, anticipating what players and coaches may do next (e.g., calling timeout when surprised by a press). That is what I look for in measuring how referees are performing, not whether or not I got every call I wanted (I don't think I ever have or ever will!).

My teams have never lost games because of referee calls, although we have had some stinkers at crunch time. I tell my players not to put the game in the hands of the referees, but to win in or lose it themselves. If we establish our game from the beginning and adapt to the flow of the game (including the way it is being called), then we aren't desperately looking for a foul call with 2 seconds to play to bail us out, or wishing we hadn't gotten the phantom hack called on our center as time expired. No, we are up by 10-20 points and cruising on autopilot to victory.

If we play a perfect game, one in which all of our players make the right decisions on and off the ball, on offense and on defense, we can then critique the referees' performance. Won't ever happen.

just as many have pointed out one official's call will not win or lose a game but to say they have no effect on the outcome is not true. If officials had had no part in the game there would not be a need for them but they are. Thier job is to administer the game and help keep it fair for all parties involved. The other thing you see in replies to this post is when officals are critisized some have a tendency to move directly into a defensive "what about you mode" which is unfortuate. The official that cannot admit a mistake or realize thier errors and improve off of them or the the ones who get an "attitude" when questioned about a call are the ones that aggrivate the most and give the population at large a black eye. I know I really dislike working with some guys in my area becasue they have this tendency.

I have read each and every one of the responses to this young lady's statements and I agree with every one. I participated in basketball 2 years ago and was on both ends of a poorly officiated game. I coach this year and I have had good refs, bad refs and have benefitted from and been hurt by each. I am also now an official myself and I have called a good game, and I have called a bad game. I believe that if the lady who posted this message has come back to review all of the answers she'll realize that every one had a valid point and maybe realize that she was acting in anger by posting the message in the first place. I hope that it was beneficial to all parties involved that this discussion was started in the first place, and I hope that the officials involved in the "what about you" responses as mentioned realize also that it was an act of anger and that it was unprofessional to try and redirect the blame.

I wish you could have been more specific on the game situation. Licensed or non-licensed, we are out there to do a job. We as officials make mistakes every game. We learn each time from these mistakes. I know the resaon I got into officiating was the challenge of it to call the game as well, and as fair as I possibly can! We are the first ones to know if we've had a bad or good game. We are also the first to know when we've blown a call. We are human. The only thing that bothers me about other officials at times is laziness. There is no excuse for that at any level. Granted, we will call the game differently at certain levels, but still put out the effort. I have always said the game is for the players. It's pretty easy to coach on the sidelines or to sit in the stands and yell at players and officials. You are the ones practicing every night and we are the ones taking all the abuse. I agree with many of the other replys, at your first opportunity get your license and help improve the officiating pool.

Star -

What you have to realize is that most of the refs were former players at some level. They DO UNDERSTAND your side of things. I still play in a men's league (over 50) so that I know what it is like from the player's perspective. Players today are quicker and stronger with more moves....what looks like a travel to a non-player is not....refs know more than you give them credit for...

Star, I hope you check the answers AND keep checking into this forum. Refs, coaches and players can all make mistakes, we're human too, right? (don't answer that!) I've done games where a coach could called a key time out or something like that. Or a player feels (or has been told) he cost the team game by fouling, missing a shot, or causing a turn over) NOT TRUE, in my opinion. I go by the theory, you can WIN the game at the end but not lose it. These are kids and there was plenty of chances during the game to score the missed lay up, foul shot...not just the ONE at the end. Have fun coach.

Star has been called alot of things and talked down to. That isn't right. Officials do effect the outcome of the game and some of us don't even realize it. Some officials get where they are politicaly and don't even belong so you have no right to talk about the game like you have it all solved. We've all "dogged" a call in our time but the attitude that we approach this with is very important. We can't act like we are untouchable and never at fault. Everyone has their own opinion but we as officials must examine ourselves and find out if we are where we need to be before we criticize a player. We need to ask ourselves questions like do we know the rules, are we in shape, do we look like we belong on the court, do we look good in uniform, do we know how to manage a game, do we know our primaries..............
Keep your head up Star and keep improving. I hope you don't let all this negativity leave a bad taste in your mouth.

Why has this thread been discussed in such length?? Just like you should with a coach or a player, she has had her say now let it go!!

KID -

There was so much discussion about this because quite a number of us refs are parents too. Her post begged for responses!!
One comment of Star's in particular bothered me: "it wasn't fair for someone NOT on their team to call the game". I wonder what the other team would think of that statement. Star should think before she speaks her mind so openly.

Tomegun -

New member I see. Welcome! Where have you refed and how long?

Just a little bit of advice --- for a first post I wouldnt talk down to the rest of the refs who take their jobs very seriously. You havent exactly endeared yourself to me.

Jack,

I take my job very seriously. I don't think you have to be a member here for a certain amount of time before you can make comments here. Do you? I don't think you would say that if my name was Hightower or Valentine would you? I've been officiating for 7 years. That does matter. I think I'm a good official with a good grasp of the entire game. That is important too! I do varsity so I think I can bring some credibility to these discussions. One thing I do pride myself on is my ability to understand the game and being a good ref. I'm from the school of thought that a good way to "rack and stack" officials is to get on the floor and get at it. No drinks at the bar or coming over for dinner, just call the game! I do know, however how the world works so the politics will remain. I think if you knew me you probably wouldn't have any problems working a game with me and I wouldn't even try to judge you or your skills from what I know about you over the internet.

Tommy -

I agree with you that (1)there is unfortunately politics involved in getting your patch and (2)judge a ref by their ability and knowledge. I like the way you think.
The young lady Star lost all credibility with me when she said she didn't think it fair for someone to ref her game that was not a member of her team.
Hope you are having a good season.

Jack, I think you misquoted Star, She said it wasn't fair that someone blow the game that wasn't on her team. She said nothing about the officials being members of the team.

Politics should have nothing to do with getting a patch. It is how you do on your test(s). Getting the varsity games is politics.

[This message has been edited by Tim Roden (edited February 10, 2000).]

Tim,

If you score 100% on your test how does that really measure your ability on the floor? I think you have to know the rules and do good on the test BUT I've seen guys that do well on the test but can't run, can't apply the rules, have terrible judgement and so on and so on. Where do you get this "patch" I'm from a state that doesn't use patches or anything so I guess I don't know about that. The way I approach the politics involved in this "game" is the fact that when you are good enough they will have no choice but to give you games.

Tim -

You could logically infer that from her statement.

You cannot ref a varsity game without your patch in New York. You must pass written (43 out of 50 correct) and floor test each year. This usually takes 5 years on average (foor test is tough) but some officials have gotten their patch in 2 years. Others have taken longer thna 5 years (due to politics) and have switched to refing girls varsity where there is less politics. Where do you ref Tim? how about Tomegun?

Tom,

In my state, a patch means that you have passed a test. Nothing more, nothing less. It means you have a textbook knowledge of the rules and you have some understanding of the mechanics to use on the floor. It says nothing of your judgement, game management and people skills, physical condition or other factors that make for a top notch varsity level official. Varsity officials are chosen from the officials that have a patch. You do have to play the political game to get a varsity game. In otherwords, you got to get an assignor to look at you and evaluate you as to what level of varsity game he can trust you with.

I guess were on the same system. IAABO I presume. Our floor test is much easier than that. Run a few times up and down the floor with kids during a scrimmage and you pass.

P.s. I'm in Colorado

[This message has been edited by Tim Roden (edited February 12, 2000).]

I'm from Nevada. We don't wear any patches and we don't have a test on the floor. I think I would like the floor test though. I work hard almost every day trying to sculpt the new NBA body. I don't want shoot up to that level and I know I'm not even close to that. I just think it doesn't hurt your credibility to look like an athlete.

I'm from Nevada. We don't wear any patches and we don't have a test on the floor. I think I would like the floor test though. I work hard almost every day trying to sculpt the new NBA body. I don't want shoot up to that level and I know I'm not even close to that. I just think it doesn't hurt your credibility to look like an athlete.

I'm from Nevada. We don't wear any patches and we don't have a test on the floor. I think I would like the floor test though. I work hard almost every day trying to sculpt the new NBA body. I don't want shoot up to that level and I know I'm not even close to that. I just think it doesn't hurt your credibility to look like an athlete.

Tim - YES! IAABO. I just moved to North Carolina (Greensboro) this past April and have been doing sub-varsity games. Its 3 man here, NY is 2...so I am learning this year.
One thing about IAABO - pay was much better and they didnt run you into the ground like here.

Tome - as far as being in shape, what I try to do is make sure my legs and endurance are there. Weight has never been a problem with me.Each year I get older and the players stay the same age! I'm 53 (started refing late) Refed 3 years in NY and am now calling in NC. Not too many overweight refs out there, but I've seen some.