Ref chokes coach
 

Don't know if this has already been posted or not -- and I'm way to lazy to look. But. . .:(

http://www.withleather.com/post.phtml?pk=5829


05.20.2008 IS REF GONNA HAVE TO CHOKE A COACH?We'd like to thank newly-anointed WL reader DoctorOctagon for this tip on some black-on-white crime that took place in his backyard. Well, it was in a gym. "Backyard" was a figure of speech. Anyway:

Mickey Shaffer of Poyen said he was coaching the Lady Wings from Central Arkansas as they competed in the seventh- and eighth-grade girls' division of the Challenge of Champions tournament in Little Rock when he questioned a referee's call, and the referee, whose name Shaffer did not know, called a technical foul on him. Shaffer said he sat down but continued objecting to the call, and the referee called a second technical foul on him and ejected him from the game. Shaffer said he was "getting my two cents in" on his way out when the referee grabbed him by the throat and choked him for a few seconds.
Shaffer said that the photo of the choke makes it look worse than it actually was. Like that's gonna keep anyone from getting pissed. Did we mention this happened in Arkansas?

The referee who choked Shaffer was removed from the game he had been officiating and swapped with a referee from a different game on another court, according to witnesses. "He way overreacted, and he did a malicious thing in front of a lot of kids," said [a] parent, who asked that her name not be used. "When you're in that kind of position, you're supposed to be about sportsmanship and all this, and if you don't have any more self-control than that, you just don't need to be in that position."
The coach, by the way, is not pressing charges. Could it be that the coach doesn't want to admit to what he might have said to the ref? Do they mic up coaches at the 7th-grade level?

[Arkansas News]

Eh, I'd say he probably deserved, it's for all the coaches who should have been choked and weren't. I'd buy the ref a beer!!!!

:D

Is that anything like "choking the chicken"? :p

Im not sure I like this post being hre. I mean, looking at hte blog, I dont tknw if we should even credit wat's said. but even so, i don't think its funny to joke about choking a coach, even if he "deservs" it. Also, I don't see what race has to do with it.

I am not trying to be funny, but you cannot say anything and everything to people. I do not advocate what the official did, but we also do not know what the coach said. And considering the acceptability of coaches being abusive to officials, he crossed the wrong person. After all this is a 7th Grade game that has likely an inexperienced or not a very good official.

Peace

To me, it doesn't matter one little bit what the coach said to the official. That official was way, way, way out of line to touch the coach in anger, let alone choke the guy. No excuse - I don't care what was said...by the same token, I don't care how bad the official is, the coach doesn't get to choke the official either...if it's true, the official needs to be charged with assault just like a coach would be.

Why, are there a bunch of typos or something? My guess is race had everything to do with it. People don't just up and choke someone for no reason. My guess is the coach said something extraordinarily provocative. But it's only a guess.

I'll add that I think the ref should have composed himself instead of losing control; even though I can't say there wouldn't be a circumstance under which I might lose my composure.

There isn't enough posted in that article to really allow anyone to form a definitive opinion imo. You don't know the exact circumstances leading up to that pic, and you also don't know the context of the pic.

Personally, I try to not form an opinion until I hear both sides. And until I hear what the official in the pic has to say, I sureashell ain't gonna dump on him. That's just not right to do so imo.

Race has something to do with just about everything. Just because someone did not use a specific word or come out and say certain things does not dismiss the fact that it plays a big role. Just look at the Presidential Race and how race has been a factor, but people try to act like it has not by stating the obvious. People think because we celebrate a holiday or certain laws have been changed the backdrop of this issue has gone away. It has not.

Peace

I agree.

Not sure whatinthehell this has to do with the original post...but I will say it again - I don't care what was said, it does not justify grabbing someone by the neck (aka choking someone)...and to try to say "It's OK that he choked that guy if the guy said something racist" is just plain stupid.

You obviously did not read the article. And you obviously did not read a couple responses after the OP.

Once again, no one said it was OK. After all we are human beings and when you say certain things to human beings or behave in a manner, they may act in a way that is outside of the game. That goes for an official, coach, player or fan. Often conflicts in games go outside that arena. And if someone does not adhere to "your standard" of professionalism, then it really does not matter in the long run if they decide to assault you or harm you more than choking you.

I have seen it enough times where a game conflict becomes bigger than what happens between the lines.

Peace

Oh good.

Anther sociology 101 thread.

Haven't had one of those in a while.

Without commenting specifically on this instance, since none of us know the context, let me say that there are some things that, if said to me by another person in a certain context, will result in me imparting physical harm upon that person. The number of topics and the context is quite limited, but there are some. Fortunately, the number of instances that this has happened in my life is extremely low, but it has happened and I make no apologies for it.

BTW - I'm being uncharacteristically serious here.

Mark, we would appreciate it if you started your own psychology 101 thread.

This is the sociology 101 thread.

TIA.

This is where we diverge, I think. I'll agree that race is playing a role in the campaign, but I don't think anyone thinks the "backdrop" has gone away. It has changed, inarguably for the better, over the past 50 years. But no one says it's gone away. The debate is on how best to proceed from here.

That said, if indeed the coach engaged in a bit of race baiting, I put the bulk of the blame on him because he knew very well what he was doing. If he didn't, he had every responsibility to foresee it. Again, that's "if" he was race baiting.

I'm sure the official, if he had it to do over again, would have restrained himself. I could be wrong, but I'm giving the benefit of the doubt to the official here (based on my own strongly set biases) over the coach. I've known some hotheaded officials, but none who would get physical without significant provocation; regardless of their skin color.

What an unbelievably sad story for both sides......and we're all supposed to be in it for the kids? Especially at this level? Wonder what the kids saw and/or heard? Very disappointing. Wow!

We really do not disagree at all.

I hope that it was not the case where the coach used any kind of language, but something tells me that is the case. Of course I have no idea for sure, but I have a hunch.

Peace

Lock it. Lock it NOW!!!

I completely agree from my point of view. The conversation might not be on the court (field or diamond), but it would likely happen. Or at the very least the person would know very soon how I felt outside of the arena those comments took place.

Peace

Gotta agree with one of the comments in the discussion thread under the article.

That ref DOES look a lot like Tone Loc.

My hunch is the same as yours. It just doesn't smell right.

And the coach looks like he's doing the Funky Cold Medina

IMO, it doesn't matter what was said. I don't care if the coach used every racial slur he knew.

Self restraint must be used.

That ref should be de-patched & prosecuted.

Name calling is exactly that..name calling.

bad move Tone Loc

And a completely unfounded guess. There was absolutely nothing in the article or photo that gives any indication that race was involved aside from the obvious point that one person was white and one was black. While racial insults certainly could have been the trigger, I could think of at least a few equally inflamitory actions that could be just as likely....e.g. insults/comments about his daughter/wife/mother without reference to race. It would be just as ignorant and stupid to suggest that the official couldn't restrain himself because of his race. Let's not make something about race merely because it is possible.

Put simply, we don't have enough info to make any conclusions about what led to the incident. But, unless the coach grabbed the officials hands and put them there, the official should lose his officiating credientials.

I agree with the first paragraph - it is very well put!

With the bold text, I agree only if in the same region, a coach looses his coaching credentials, if the situation was reversed. If current policy is to suspend a coach for a year, then the official could be permitted the same punishment.

You may well be right, Cameron. It’s possible the official was just having a bad day. Or it’s possible that he’s a psychopath who was just looking for an excuse to choke a coach. There are all sorts of potential explanations.

Maybe the coach said something about the official’s wife and kids. We don’t know. I do know that few things generate more emotional reactions than racially charged provocations. Personally, when someone who doesn’t know my wife/kids/mother makes some stupid insult, I chalk it up to ignorance. Of course, I understand some folks have different triggers than I do.

I’m not willing to say, however, that regardless of how the coach may have provoked him, the official should lose his credentials. An investigation should be completed, and loss of his officiating license should be on the table.

Just because you do not want to go there, does not mean that others (with their life experience) cannot draw their own conclusion. I do know one thing as an official I have never seen another official yell and scream at a coach in order and then assault them. So I can come to a conclusion that the coach must have said something. And for someone to go that far that coach likely said something over the top. I have never even seen the most inexperienced official react “that way” over just some normal words or comments. I will stick with my assumption at this point and something was confirmed the suggestion of the article.

Peace

And I know someone will twist what I am saying here, so I also agree that if the official were to be brought to charges that would be perfectly OK with me. And I would also have no problem if he was banned from officiating in many areas and many sports as well. Just like any crime there is always a motive part of the discussion, it does not mean the motive is right.

Peace

It's not that I don't want to go there. You're making up what "might" have happened out of thin air. You show me even one report by any witness (even the official himself) where the coach is claimed to have said something even remotely racial and I'll conceed....just one. Until then, it is, with absolutely no evidence to suggest racism aside from the races of the parties involved, just as wrong to judge someone of being a racist as it is to actually be racist.

Could he have thrown some unacceptable racist language? Quite possibly, maybe even likely. For all any of us know from what was in the article, he could have been calling the guy a follicularly challenged fag.

Instead of convicting him of being a racist for being white, perhaps we should find out what he actually said.

It was one of the first lines in the article. I also did not say anything about being racist or that this person is that way. But if that was suggested, unless I hear otherwise or more of the story, that is my first take. That does not mean that is what happen or the basis for the conflict. Also considering what has been said to me, that is the closest thing I can think of to make me even considering kicking the a$$ of a coach while still on the court. And in the past when there have been articles of conflict between officials, coaches and fans that included very specific elements of accusation of racial tensions, there have been people here that have dismissed it because they want to believe otherwise. It seems unless you have the KKK directly involved, people want to dismiss any accusation of an incident bases on race. Just because you do not see it does not mean it was not there. I hope that is not the case, but I think it is likely. If you disagree, that is fine with me. I have been in enough situations as an official and have wondered why certain things were said to certain people about certain things. This situation makes me wonder and I have the right to voice that opinion.

Peace

Talk about reading what you want to see...the only reference to race was "black-on-white crime"....a statement of fact regarding the skin color of the participants...nothing more. A few people here were suggesting it was the reason...primarily not you but you did softly back those suggestions.

Check out your posts #18 and #28.
I don't doubt it and support you 100% if you tell me the coach actually said or did something that was racial in nature.
Conflicts happen for a multitude of reasons. Race is merely one of them. Do coaches or fans and officials of the same race have conflicts? Of course they do. The reasons for all of those conflicts can also exist between differing races too. Just because two races are involved doesn't automatically make race the reason for the conflict.
I prefer to at least see some tiny shred of a fact that it was racial aside from only knowing the color of the skin of the parties before I'd even consider it racial. Coming to a racial conclusion based only on the skin color of the participants is exactly what the entire civil rights movement was about. It was about being treated equal and having the same opportunities regardless of skin color. To come to any conclusion base solely on skin color is against the principles of fairness and equality.
I don't disagree that is a possible reason for the reaction and among one of a few most likely reasons....but there are others. No one, not me, not you, no one has any idea about the nature of the altercation from the info we have. To come to any conclusion either way is plain ignorant. Like I said earlier, making such a claim would be just as despicable as claiming the official couldn't control himself because of his race. The official was simply human, was insulted in some inflammatory way, and reacted.

Camron,

I am not disagreeing with what you are saying. I just think you have to understand that we all come to early conclusions on early information. It does not mean that point of view will not change or evolve over time. And I am sure there is a lot more to this story than what is put in the article. Just like there was more to the story about that Kentucky situation that we discussed here a few years back. And honestly we will never get the full story anyway on what really was said or what really happen. All we know is an official is choking a coach and something had to be said or done to provoke that kind of response, right or wrong.

Peace

I think the ref was just offering the coach a Red Stripe beer.