I was doing a men's rec league game yesterday under NCAA men's rules and a player got a breakaway, ran down the court, threw the ball off the backboard, took a few steps, caught the ball and then dunked it. I called him for traveling as you can't pass to yourself. He said he was shooting and therefore not a violation. Your thoughts??

NFHS, NCAA Men's/Women's, and FIBA: traveling

But it looked great didn't it. At least a 10.0 for style.

Probably more of an answer than you bargained for... :D
 

Shot or pass is a judgement call on your part. Basically, it's a shot if you think the player was shooting.

If you judge that he was shooting, then he can get the ball back, dribble, shoot, anything. The ball doesn't even have to touch the backboard---it can miss everything and he can still get the rebound legally.

If you judge that he wasn't shooting, then there are a couple of possibilities. If the player hadn't dribbled before throwing the ball up, then this might just be the beginning of a dribble. The backboard is considered part of the floor in this case. Your description makes me thing that he was dribbling before he threw the ball.

OK, now you have to think about how he released the ball. Did he end his dribble before throwing the ball? If not, throwing the ball against the backboard is just a continuation of the dribble, as I mentioned above.

OK, now suppose he dribbled, took the ball in both hands (ending the dribble), threw it off the backboard, caught it, and dunked it. If he catches it with his feet on the floor, then I think we have a double dribble (*not* a travel), since throwing it against the backboard constitutes the beginning of a new dribble. If he catches it in the air, though, and dunks all in one motion...I don't think there's a case in the rulebook that deals with this, and I can see it going either way. (This is the Tracy McGrady play from the all-star game!) My instinct is that it's legal, but I'll have to thumb through the book some more to back this up.

How does that move exceed the allowable limits of movement?

By definition the backboard is considered part of the court, unless a field goal or free throw attempt is involved. In the posted play A1's action was not a field goal attempt. A1's throwing the ball against the backboard and then being the first to touch it was traveling. His action is no different that if he had thrown a pass to A2 and then touched the ball before A2 or any other player had touched the ball, and it does not matter if the ball touched the court (including the backboard) or not before A1 touched the ball the second time.

This guy probably watched sportcenter after the NBA all-star game when Tracy McGrady did this exact thing. I wondered why it wasn't called travelling, but everything in the NBA I wonder why it isn't travelling. If this case was like the one I stated above, according to NFHS and NCAA rules this is travelling. We all know that he was trying to show off!

Good grief!
 

This is not traveling, guys.

4-4-5
A ball which touches the front faces or edges of the backboard is treated the same as touching the floor inbounds, except that when the ball touches the thrower's backboard it does not constitute a part of a dribble.

Had he dribbled, thrown the ball to the floor and then caught it, it's a double dribble, as it would constitue the start of a new dribble. Had the ball not hit the backboard, then it's traveling, as it would be a self pass. But if the ball hits the backboard, we've got nothing. It's perfectly legal to throw the ball off your own backboard, run, and catch it. You can even throw the ball off your opponent's backboard, run and catch it, as long as you haven't previously dribbled. (4.4.5)

And don't respond that it isn't unless you have a rule or case play to back your self up.

Re: Good grief!
 

Good grief is right. No travelling, it's just a good,
fun play. I'm disappointed (but not surprised) by the
post claiming this is a travel.

Found this in the NCAA rulebook
 

Rule 4-65. Art. 4.
A.R. 40. A1 intercepts a pass and dribbles toward A’s basket for a break-away layup.
Near A’s free-throw line, A1 legally stops and ends his or her dribble. A1 throws the
ball against A’s backboard and follows the throw. While airborne, A1 rebounds the ball
off the backboard and dunks. R U L I N G : The play shall be legal since the backboard is
equipment located in A1’s half of the playing court, which A1 is entitled to use.

Re: Found this in the NCAA rulebook
 

Okay, my original post was based upon a logical interpretaion without looking at the associated Casebook Plays and Approved Rulings. After reading your post I decided to look at the NFHS Casebook as well as look at NCAA Men's/Womens's R4-S65-A4, A.R. 40.

NFHS Casebaook Play R4.15.4C: After dribbling and coming to a stop, A1 throws the ball (a) against the opponent's backboard and catches the rebound; or (b) against an official, immediately recovers the ball and dribbles again; or (c) against his/her own backboard, catches the rebound and dribbles again. RULING: A1 has violated in both (a) and (b). Throwing the ball against the opponent's backboard or an official constitutes another dribble, provided A1 is the first to touch the ball after it strikes the official or the board. In (c), the action is legal as a player's own backboard is treated the same as touching the floor inbounds, but does not constitute a part of a dribble. (R9-S5)

Casebook Play (c) is identical to A.R. 40.

I stand corrected regarding my prior posting but I just do not feel comfortable in the NFHS and NCAA rulings.

Re: Good grief!
 

Tony, I stand corrected, because I spoke off the top of my head without checking the rule book. But I still just do not feel right about this definition.

Hey, there's stuff in there that I don't like either! :D

I just wanted to set the record straight. ;)

Too bad we have to make calls on the fly instead of stopping and looking through our books.

Mick,you mean you do not carry a little pouch around your waist on the court, with the rule books????? It always helps to have the coach read the correct rule over the PA, to which they usually willingly comply with. Keeps the game so harmonius.;)

I thought I read, "Gotta make that little pouch around the waist go away", or was that the fanny thingy?.

Re: Re: Found this in the NCAA rulebook
 

Actually, casebook play (c) is different, since it explicitly allows the player to dribble again after throwing it off his/her own backboard. AR40 only deals with an airborne player catching and dunking, a much narrower situation.

NCAA 4-18.4 AR-13 is the same as parts (a) and (b) of the NFHS case you quoted, but has no part (c).

I was unable to find anything else in the NCAA rulebook that deals with this.

On another note, I've never been able to find anything in the NCAA rulebook that prohibits a pass to oneself. I've seen the NFHS case quoted several times on this board. Does anyone have a rule reference for NCAA?

Re: Re: Re: Found this in the NCAA rulebook
 

<b>A.R. 40. A1 intercepts a pass and dribbles toward A’s basket for a break-away layup.
Near A’s free-throw line, A1 legally stops and ends his or her dribble. A1 throws the
ball against A’s backboard and follows the throw. While airborne, A1 rebounds the ball
off the backboard and dunks. R U L I N G : The play shall be legal since the backboard is
equipment located in A1’s half of the playing court, which A1 is entitled to use.</b>

The fact that A1 is allowed to follow the ball (while stepping) and legaly catch the "self-pass" implies that he could start a new dribble, IMO.

There is no explicit rule against a "self-pass" in the rules to my knowledge; you have to read and interpret the traveling rules in order to rule on a self pass.

Slider, actually a self pass is addressed by 4.15.4E. Also, 4.15.4C states that the player could legally dribble again.

4.15.4C
After dribbling and coming to a stop, A1 throws the ball: (a) against the opponent's backboard and catches the rebound; or (b) against an official, immediately recovers the ball and dribbles again; or (c) against his/her own backboard, catches the rebound and dribbles again.

Ruling: A1 has violated in both (a) and (b). Throwing the ball against the opponent's backboard or an official constitutes another dribble, provided A1 is first to touch the ball after it strikes the official or the board. In (c), the action is legal as a player's own backboard is treated the same as touching the floor inbounds, but does not constitute a part of a dribble.


4.15.4 SITUATION E: (a) A1 tosses the ball from one hand to the other while keeping his/her pivot foot in contact with the floor; or (b) A1 throws the ball over the head of B1 and then takes several steps before catching it.

Ruling: Legal in (a), but a traveling violation in (b). In (b), A1 may not move his/her pivot foot without violating. Since the ball did not touch the floor, the tossing and subsequent catch is not part of a dribble nor is it the start and end of a dribble. (9-4)

I'm an idiot! I also flew off the handle and like a howler monkey thought I knew the rules. I'm not going to make another submission (after this one) unless I check the rule book and have rule references. Also, I'm done with basketball and I'm going to concentrate on my golf game! I'm glad we have such sharp guys on our forum that can correct "gomers" like me.

Note: I went from the lower level of the outhouse in the NCAA brackets to the first floor with my picks of Kent State and UCLA in the sweet 16!

Nice job, Tony!

These are the NFHS rules. Does anyone have a reference for NCAA?

The "legal on a try" reference: 4-64-1 AR33

The "illegal otherwise" reference: 4-18-4 AR13, AR14 (plus some common sense reading of 4-18 and 4-64)

True, I should have said the words "self pass" are not used.

Hey Mick, when do I get the bill for the black socks I "borrowed" from you at FU?

zebra44,
Glad I was packin'. ;)
mick

I'd like to add a twist to this play. Upon releasing the ball to hit the backboard B1 turns to block out A1 after A1 has elevated to dunk his "pass" off the board. What kind of foul do you have in A if A1 has the ball or B if A1 does not yet have the ball?

I'd like to add a twist to this play. Upon releasing the ball to hit the backboard B1 turns to block out A1 after A1 has elevated to dunk his "pass" off the board. What kind of foul do you have in A if A1 has the ball or B if A1 does not yet have the ball? [/QUOTE]

If the contact is signifant enough to warrant a foul, it should be a common foul (BLOCK).
As I interpret this situation, A1 is attempting to rebound a missed shot.

There could be any number of calls made.

Common foul on B1 if he fouls before A1 gets the ball.

Shooting foul on B1 if he fouls after A1 gets the ball.

Common foul on A1 if B1 has legal position and A1 fouls him.

confused
 

I'm new with the rules/officiating and I am confused. Can anyone summarize for me when it is legal for a player to bounce the ball to him or herself off the backboard?

Thank you for any help you can give to a new official.

Re: confused
 

Offensive backboard: Any time (possible exception: the player is in the backcourt, throws the ball off the offensive board and recovers it in the backcourt with no one else touching it.)

Defensive backboard: Treat it just like the player bounced the ball off the floor. If that was legal (e.g., the player had not already dribbled), then the throw (and recovery) off the backboard is legal.

thanks
 

Thanks, Bob.

Just to clarify the offensive board situation: if a player has dribbled and held the ball, can he still throw the ball off the board, recover the ball and proceed to dribble again? Or can he simply recover the ball with no additional dribble?

Yes, he can still dribble. If he were to throw the ball offf his opponent's backboard, it would be a double dribble.