How to say no
 

All right, I have a bit of an issue with a camp and I thought I'd check with some of you that have been around a while longer to get your take. I have posted on the forum for quite some time under another username, but I went a little more anonymous to ask some questions as I know others on the forum are from my area.

I work high school and JUCO women. I have attended a camp put on by my JUCO assignor for the past 5 or 6 years. I've learned a lot at the camp and I did get hired in the league for the past 2 seasons, I was even suprised by being selected to work a playoff game for the JUCO league this season. The dilemma I have is that the camp has the same evaluators and speakers every year. I have worked actual games with many of the evaluators and the others have seen me work at the camp. My standard evaluation is, "you do a nice job, keep it up." I am attending a couple of new camps this season to get better, but I just don't feel that I'm getting much out of this particular camp anymore and I was thinking about not attending this year. Someone from the camp contacted me recently asking if I was attending and indicated that they want to see me there. I am going, but how do I say no next year? I don't want to portray the image that I think I've "arrived" and don't need to work to get better, but I feel that my time and resources would be better spent with evaluators that do not know me as well. Anyone been through something similar? How did you handle it?

I understand your concern man, because it's the same one I have. Unfortunately, some supervisors just have a thing about seeing you at THEIR camps. It doesn't matter to them about the other bigger and better camps you have attended, its not THEIRS. So, you're hands are kinda tied, if you don't go, there's a good chance you might not have a job. If you do, you feel like you've wasted money. The good thing about our game, is not matter what, you learn something ever time you work. There are alot of catch 22 situations in our profession. Only thing I can say, is keep attending your supervisors camp until you have moved on to better leagues, but never forget where you came from.

I know its probably not what you want to hear. Private me if you wanna talk more.

CH

Thanks for the thoughts CLH, I agree with everything you say. I am just planning on continuing to go, but if I could find a good way to bow out, I would. I get the feeling I'm being asked to go so that there are enough officials to work the games rather than because I need to be looked at, but I very well could be mistaken.

Keep going, keep working your rear off and, with luck, in a few years, you'll be asked to be one of the evaluators at said camp.

Put yourself in the assignor's shoes for a moment. Their job depends on putting together a roster of officials that will do the best possible job for the conference. Given the fact that rules and mechanics change every year, how do they know you are getting and understanding the changes? How do they know you haven't gained 30 pounds in the off-season? Don't they have a responsibilty to personally know that the officials they are putting on the court can do the job?

Some people think of camps as the "initial" job interview, and once they're on staff, they're in. Many assignors consider their camps as an interview for each season's roster.

Something to consider.

Wow...now there's a sweeping generalization for you. And one that I completely disagree with. Those assignors jobs depend on who they put on the floor each season...they have the "right" (for lack of a better word) to expect you to prove yourself each season.

Having said that, I find it hard to believe that a JuCo assignor wouldn't realize that going to a "higher level" camp is a pretty good thing and accept that as their proof that you are working on your game.

And for doubleringer - I found myself in a similiar situation several years ago. When the assignor (who I get along with sooooo well) called me and asked why I wasn't signed up for the camp, I pulled out my notes from the previous summer's camp and read back to her the comments her evaluators gave me. Things like "Why the f--- are you here? There's nothing we can teach you." And "Why are you wasting your time coming here again? You need to go to a different camp." Pretty much ended the conversation right then and there. And yes, I'm still on the roster - or at least was. We'll see come next August!:D

How often do you have to duck while riding your high horse?

I would agree with what has been posted by the other users, but would add the following. I think you really have to be careful about how you handle this. On one hand, you don't want the assigner to write you off or reduce your schedule. On the other, it is good to get input from fresh eyes. I would solicit feedback from the veteran officials in the group. Hopefully, there are some you trust that would give you their honest opinion on your summer plans. It might be worth only attending the camp for a day or two so at least you are getting in front of the assigner. Another possibility is to see if the assigner attends other camps in the area as an observer or clinician. Unfortunately, most assigners make you play the game of paying to go to their camps.

Good luck.

That's no way to talk to a denizen of The Mythical And Magical Kingdom Of College And Above.

You apologize right now, Mister.:mad:

I won't do it. You can't make me, not even with an army of squirrels.

I agree with what I've heard here. I know I have to go do my song and dance to keep working. I'm just a little frustrated that I'm put in a position where I really can't say no. I could be working some spring baseball to help me get ready for the regular season. I'm newer to baseball and could use the work (not to mention making money instead of spending it). Anyway, thanks for the thoughts. It is always interesting to hear everyone's opinions.

Yeah, yer locked in doubleringer.
Tsk, tsk. And don't you dare just do the song and dance!
You git to it. ...Finals next year.
You don't wanna git double skunked.

Not even the ones in that M&M commercial?

I know that the responses to this are giving this poster a hard time, but I have the same questions.

Friend of mine goes to the same D3 women's camp every summer. Pays $300+ dollars to go, essentially just to stay on staff. Guy running the camp makes a fortune off of it and essentially expects the whole staff to come to fill the camp up.

Doesn't anyone see anything wrong with this ongoing pay to play mentality? It's starting to trickle down into the HS game here. I work a conference that many think is a top conference, but I refuse to clear my calendar to go to a camp the assignor runs that costs $300 with the not-so-veiled threat that "your schedule next season doesn't mean you have one the following season."

No I do not. This is a business. If you do not like the things it takes to keep doing business, get out. It is that simple. If you do not want to go to camp, someone else will pay to go to camp.

But here is the funny thing about all of this. I have never heard any college supervisor ever get upset if you cannot go to a camp if there is a conflict. I really almost never hear that when you are attending other camps or have been on staff for more than one year. That sounds more like that is what people want to think than the reality.

Peace

I do!!!!.:mad: I find it appalling that a high school assignor would want people to pay $300 to work their conference (because this is want you are doing). It will take about six game at a minimal to break even at that level. You have got to be ****ting me!!! You can give my slot to someone else.

And we wonder why some leave officiating.

[quote=JRutledge]No I do not. This is a business. If you do not like the things it takes to keep doing business, get out. It is that simple. If you do not want to go to camp, someone else will pay to go to camp.


Rut, with all do respect this is bullsh!t. The high school level is not design to give an assignor a comfortable lifestyle off his/her staff. Furthermore, I can understand if the pay was even close to what some may get paid at the collegiate level which it is not. I have to agree with you though on the business aspect. But, it should not be at the officials expense while the assignor take assignment fee + camp fee at the officials expense. The official IMO is getting F%%%ed in this scenario.

First of all you really need to go back and read what I said. I was not talking about HS, but the sentiment is really the same. If you do not like the circumstances of having to work games, then do not work them. Do what Rich did and not take the games. No one is holding a gun to your head.

Secondly, I would like to ask you where does it say someone cannot charge you money to attend their camp? Officiating is a business. If you run any other business there is some overhead to that business. And sometimes you have to pay for services in order to make money. I know with my business I have to pay for a lot of things before I make a cent. There are a lot of things I have to do to grow my business that require me to pay someone for something to make some money. You will find no such proclamation at the HS level has to be so different than any other level. And if you can find such literature then please show us a link or reference to it, because I would love to see where that is located. You have to pay dues to an association right? I know some who have to pay to use Assign By Web or the Arbiter software. The issue is how much and is it worth it to you.

There is a reality to officiating and there is fantasy. What you are telling me is fantasy because you do not like the system. Now I have never lived in an area that required such a big amount, but I have had to attend camps to work conferences. If I did not attend the camps I did not work. I make choices like that all the time either with pay the money or the time, or you do not work.

Peace

Since I started all this I'll chime in with my presonal philosophy. Yeah, I don't like paying for different camps every year, especially those I have to go to annually when I already work for that particular assignor. What I do is think of every camp as an investment as most of the camps pay off for me the following season. I also try to go in with the mentality that I am there to get better, not to get hired. Admittedly it gets harder to go in with this mentality as I get more experienced and work in more leagues, but I do try to focus on getting better.

It will get to the point, Jeff, where only those with the time and money to attend multiple camps will get full schedules. Is that what high school sports is about?

There are some officials working I would not hire to work a middle school game. Some with no varsity experience at all are getting tons of work after attending one camp and it's clear they do not belong there. Deer-in-headlights looks, no whistles on obvious spots that require them, other officials having to carry a weak third, no feel for the game, etc. One would think that the assignors would worry about the product they put on the floor more, but it's clear that preference has been given to those who come to the camp and line the pockets of the assignor. I can only hope that the conferences look objectively at the product they are getting and assume they can do better.

One of the advantages of states that assign exclusively through officials' associations in that none of this stuff seems to happen within those groups and since the groups are run by officials, they have no interest in gouging each other.

Why should a HS camp ever cost $300? First of all, the campers are working games that would normally pay officials a certain amount. So not only do camp organizers get camp fees from each camper, they also get all the game fees the working officials would've gotten. The clinicians -- some are quite good, and some are HS officials who have been fast tracked for reasons (gender, race) other than ability who I wouldn't want to work a regular season game with and are people I personally wouldn't hire at a level higher than JV.

As a three-sport official, I never understand why basketball has this "camp" mentality and why it's trickled down. I work as much HS baseball as I want, my football crew works every Friday night, and not once has an assignor insisted that we go to a "camp." If you look at the state bulletin, 95% or more of the "education opportunities" are 3-person basketball camps, all of which cost way too much money for a HS camp. Seems nobody is willing to just run these to give back to the game, like the local association does every fall/winter for football and basketball.

I hear what you're saying overall. I believe the fact that basketball is a much faster game than the other 2 sports you do, camp is very neccesary to get better. JMO... I do football too for the record.

Basketball officials like to think their sport is special. I do not. I know this will be popular on the basketball board, but whatever.

I find that an umpire who has poor mechanics and hence calls a poor strike zone or a football crew that is flag-happy or flag-adverse has a much bigger effect on those respective games.

I concur with the second part of your post, you couldn't be more correct. But does baseball really need a camp for strike zone practice? Doesn't the zone change from batter to batter depending on their height? Just asking because I don't call balls & strikes.

The same with football, is camp really neccesary to know what to flag & what to pass on? Afterall, you can wave a flag off & baseball is so s l o w you have ample time to digest what happened a make a correct ruling.

No disrespect, just saying though. :D Basketball has so many plays within the game that need split decisions made on the spot. You don't have that factor in those other 2 sports.

On the contrary, I can say I have heard of this type of thing happening with certain college supervisors.

No disrespect intended, either, but it's clear you really don't understand these sports. It's true that maybe we don't sprint as much in baseball or football, but the mechanics and techniques used in those sports are no less important than those used in basketball.

You're absolutely right.

Rut, I read what you said and you did not distinguish the difference between HS/College in your reply. When you stated, it is a business. Now, like I stated I understand the business aspect only on the collegiate level. I just don't buy that mentality on the high school level though.

The pay is difference between the two levels. Heck, look at some the pay that been posted on the forum in reference to HS and take a look at some the pay at the collegiate level DIII (3-person). Then tell me, why at the HS level the officials have to work twice as hard to draw even for attending a HS camp that charges $300 to attend. It stinks!!!

If you assign a conference, the assignor can require you to do anything they want you to do. Now, that might eliminate good people if the requirements are too high and that is something the schools will have to decide if those are acceptable.

I do not work in a state like that and I have never paid $300 to attend a HS camp. The most I have paid is $150 and it is not a requirement to attend or else. It is required that you are seen by the assignor(s) if you want to work for them. But after you get hired I do not know of any assignor that still makes you go. I go every year because I want to be evaluated and get better. And the instructors are college officials and many have worked D1 so I feel it is a good start before going to my other camps.

You never know the arrangement for the camp. The Camp Organizer has to pay insurance, clinicians to be there and spend their time. They might pay for food and drinks and sometimes pay other people to do everything from take money or other things to assist in making sure people are in attendance or making the schedule. There are a lot of things that go into running a camp that has nothing to do getting paid and might not make money for the organizer after all is said and done. I have no idea what you get for that $300 and whether you are getting jobbed or not.

I also work three sports and basketball is very different. Basketball in my opinion is one of the hardest sports to work. You do not have positions that you can coast in different part of the games or the entire game. And basketball is an indoor sport where you can play multiple games in a day over a short period of time. You cannot do that in other sports. But I have had to deal with other situations where if you do not attend certain "camps" in my other sports, you will not work games. You might not work any games, but the requirement is still there. And the expense can be more than $300 in those cases and I had no opportunity to prove myself good or bad on the field to do so.

Peace

Rich's concern was about whether it was right at the college level. Then he commented on how he felt it was trickling down to the HS level. My comments were mainly about what he thought about the system. If you really want to make distictions, college camps usually require a longer travel time and more days out of town. Many HS camps are not that far away unless you want it to be. And you have yet to show me where it is supposed to be different?

I look at camps differently than you do. The camp I am attending is an investment in me, not how much I get back during the season. We are looking at this from two totally different perspectives. If I only get $50 out of that $300 from that assignor, I likely learned more that will help me in my other games. If I feel that is not worth it, I will not go.

Peace

I can live with this analogy.

You wouldn't be posting about "Ralphie", in Wisconsin, would you? ;)